4th RIDG Bronze(?) Cast O/R's Version - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

wright241 · #1 25-01-10, 12:48 PM

A question for you experts out there.
This is an O/R's pattern that appears to be either a copy/fake due to the fact that it has the weight and the type of finish at the back usually indicative of a bronze badge - which is odd. This did not come from ebay or a dealer.
Can anyone shed some light on it with regard to authenticity - or not?
If it wasn't for the original source, I would write it off as fake.
The lugs have also been crudely repaired.
As usual, all suggestions welcome.

David

jim a · #2 25-01-10, 02:26 PM

Is that not a makers mark on the reverse over top of the banner?

wright241 · #3 25-01-10, 02:44 PM

Jim,
I thought so as well (the 1st letter looks like a 'J' - although this could be wishful thinking...) but then the style of the badge isn't right for an officers.
The badge itself came (indirectly) from a very good source.
Heres a close-up.

2747andy · #4 25-01-10, 04:45 PM

David,
it looks like an OSD collar that has lost it's finish? (Dave C can rectify that!!). Is it the same size as a Cap badge?

Andy

wright241 · #5 25-01-10, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2747andy

David,
it looks like an OSD collar that has lost it's finish? (Dave C can rectify that!!). Is it the same size as a Cap badge?

Andy

Good idea - do you have shares....... and yes it is.

wright241 · #6 26-01-10, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2747andy

David,
it looks like an OSD collar that has lost it's finish? (Dave C can rectify that!!). Is it the same size as a Cap badge?

Andy

Andy,
The real oddity about this badge (which is why I posted this query) is that its in the O/R's style. Am I to assume that officers actually wore a bronze (cap badged size) version of the O/R's badge rather than the smaller star (with which I am more familiar with).....? This is the only one I have ever seen like this - apart from a gilded version of the O/R's BIM cap badge - with a slider???
david

2747andy · #7 26-01-10, 07:26 PM

David,
I don't know the answer to that! 3748 Hussar I think is your man for that!

Andy

wright241 · #8 31-01-10, 03:10 PM

Cavalryman has very kindly sent me a picture and caption of this badge being worn as a collar during 1914 (taken at the York museum which I did not manage to get around visiting due to the lovely December weather).
Of ironic interest is the 2nd Lt's name and the damage to him had he not been wearing it...
Many thanks to John for this info.
david

1stTankie · #9 04-02-10, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wright241

A question for you experts out there.
This is an O/R's pattern that appears to be either a copy/fake due to the fact that it has the weight and the type of finish at the back usually indicative of a bronze badge - which is odd. This did not come from ebay or a dealer.
Can anyone shed some light on it with regard to authenticity - or not?
If it wasn't for the original source, I would write it off as fake.
The lugs have also been crudely repaired.
As usual, all suggestions welcome.

David

Hi David

I'm not sure if this helps or hinders the discussion but here is an Officer's SD collar badge of the more conventional type i.e. similar in all respects to the Officer's SD cap badge but with lugs instead of blades.

I find it difficult to explain the one you have, it seems right in most respects, but, having seen the one in the York museum, I wondered if these were produced in a hurry on mobilisation without too much regard for the niceties of officers' v soldiers' differences. The one from York looks very much like a soldier's badge and I can't be sure from the photograph that it is actually a bronze one.

The other jpegs are of the qvc and later kc versions of the soldier's cap badges for comparison.

Best wishes

Gordon

Faugh-A-Ballagh · #10 04-02-10, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wright241

Cavalryman has very kindly sent me a picture and caption of this badge being worn as a collar during 1914 (taken at the York museum which I did not manage to get around visiting due to the lovely December weather).
Of ironic interest is the 2nd Lt's name and the damage to him had he not been wearing it...
Many thanks to John for this info.
david

That must have been in the very first few days of WW1 - didn't a trooper from the 4th RIDG fire the first British shot of the war?

John

wright241 · #11 04-02-10, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1stTankie

Hi David

I'm not sure if this helps or hinders the discussion but here is an Officer's SD collar badge of the more conventional type i.e. similar in all respects to the Officer's SD cap badge but with lugs instead of blades.

I find it difficult to explain the one you have, it seems right in most respects, but, having seen the one in the York museum, I wondered if these were produced in a hurry on mobilisation without too much regard for the niceties of officers' v soldiers' differences. The one from York looks very much like a soldier's badge and I can't be sure from the photograph that it is actually a bronze one.

The other jpegs are of the qvc and later kc versions of the soldier's cap badges for comparison.

Best wishes

Gordon

Gordon,
Thats good to know and thanks.
I already have a few of the officers bronze ones with lugs that I had assumed were collars - they are just not in my album.

What I do have is a very small bnz version with lugs that is of the OR style - and after reading through the text that accompanies the one worn by
2ndLt. Chance, I assume that the small one has to be post 1914....?

So we seem to have:-
a) the standard O/R's size/shaped (lugged, in bnz) used pre-1914
(2nd Lt. Chance).
b) the standard officers shaped one (lugged, in bnz) used........??
c) the very small O/R's shaped one (lugged, in bnz) used........??

There might even be more....
Best Rgds, david

cybershot · #12 06-02-10, 11:15 AM

David

Attached is an old scan of some of the OSD badges in my collection.

As you can see the centre badge top row is the same pattern as yours.

However my badge was die struck and quite thin unlike yours which appears to be a "substanial" badge more in keeping with the "quality" badges produced at the turn of the centuary.

Kippling and King state that the OR's pattern (KK 740) was produced in sil/glt and in bronze for officers although they dont speculate as to why!!

Regards

Bob.

wright241 · #13 06-02-10, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cybershot

David

Attached is an old scan of some of the OSD badges in my collection.

As you can see the centre badge top row is the same pattern as yours.

However my badge was die struck and quite thin unlike yours which appears to be a "substanial" badge more in keeping with the "quality" badges produced at the turn of the centuary.

Kippling and King state that the OR's pattern (KK 740) was produced in sil/glt and in bronze for officers although they dont speculate as to why!!

Regards

Bob.

Bob,
Thanks for the pics.
Apart from the one I have already shown. You might be interested in the 2 on the left. They are both lugged, substantial and very well made. No1 is a 3 part construction and No2 is a 2 part construction (this one is also marked "J.R.Gaunt late Jennens". Seems like a lot of trouble to go to for OSD collars - but there you are then... Unless of course these are actually lugged OSD versions?
david

cybershot · #14 06-02-10, 12:03 PM

David

Thanks for the photo.

Attached are my 4th (RI) Dragoon Guards collars.

They were sold to me many years ago as a matched pair (lugged) and stamped J&Co. I have always believed them to be collars.

As has been discussed in other posts I believe that badges with blades are cap badges and badges with lugs are collars. However I fully accept that collars could have been worn as cap badges by individuals.

I'm facinated by your small collar sized bronze. I have never seen one like that before. I'd like to know more about it.
Regards

Bob.

wright241 · #15 06-02-10, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cybershot

David

Thanks for the photo.

Attached are my 4th (RI) Dragoon Guards collars.

They were sold to me many years ago as a matched pair (lugged) and stamped J&Co. I have always believed them to be collars.

As has been discussed in other posts I believe that badges with blades are cap badges and badges with lugs are collars. However I fully accept that collars could have been worn as cap badges by individuals.

I'm facinated by your small collar sized bronze. I have never seen one like that before. I'd like to know more about it.
Regards

Bob.

Bob,
Thats the only one I have but - unless my memory is failing me - I seem to recall that John (Faugh-A-Ballagh) had one or possibly a pair of these when I called in on him last year.
Mine came from a good source, but until I get myself along to York and have a good old nose around for the other 4RIDG things I have, I have no idea of wear or dates etc. There may be something in the MHS journals but I haven't seen anything so far.
david