4th Hussars - KK 755? - Thoughts Please - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

2747andy · #1 15-11-09, 10:31 AM

Gentlemen,
your thoughts on this one please!

At first glance it looks like a post 1902 KC pattern (KK 755) 4th Queen's Own Hussars badge, however on closer inspection, I do not think it is quite what it looks like! According to "Cavalry and Yeomanry Badges of the British Army 1914" (F Wilkinson), this badge was lugged (rings)! The badge in the images below however has (IMO) been altered (for whatever reason). Firstly the crown is larger than it should be and the lugs, although very well done appear to have been added and the original slider removed? Lastly, although not that clear in the photos, the bottom edge of the badge appears to have been rubbed down (the bevel on the top and sides has been lost along the bottom edge?). I think what we have here is a post 1906 (KK 756) pattern badge that has had the slider removed, has been lugged and the "MENTE ET MANU" base scroll removed?

Thoughts please!

Andy

Alan O · #2 15-11-09, 11:11 AM

You are right. There was a slider and it has been mucked about with.

3748 Hussar · #3 15-11-09, 11:56 AM

Hi All,

Although I can't say for sure that the badge is not Genuine or not! What I can say is.

1. it’s not a Kc badge with the scroll taken off! Why count the leaves on the wreath. Kings crown 4 either side

Victorian 6

and 1902 pattern 6

. Or maybe someone has added 2 either side o

2. What are the dimensions of the badge? A Kc pattern is alot smaller than Vic/1902 pattern.

Or I could be completely wrong and p...... In the wind. Imo after seeing this post is that it’s a Vic pattern badge with the crown changed.

3748 Hussar

wardog · #4 15-11-09, 02:06 PM

Could it be a similar course of events as some Household Cavalry badges Andy? Original loops, or officers blades replaced by a slider, then perhaps that lost and repaired in more recent time with loops/lugs? Just a long shot, as I once sold a GVR Household Cav. badge to a dealer. It had lost its fittings but had a load of lead behind the crown. I later noticed he had it up for sale fitted with loops. Cheers, Paul.

davec2 · #5 15-11-09, 03:13 PM

Can I add my two-pence worth ?

I do not know the history of this badge but in my very humble opinion, I do know a little about metal !

The crown in the photo belongs to the badge, I am certain that it is not a replacement crown, the continuity of the rim indicates as much, there are definite signs of work being carried out on the bottom edge of the rim, for what, I have no idea !! The leaves at the base, do tell a story !!

As for the re-work, did these badges ever have ' hair-pin ' sliders ? that would explain the two horizontal marks behind the crown, the dark stain could, quite easily, be where some-one has tried to replace the slider using soft solder and it has not been removed properly.

It has definitely been worked on but to what extent ? I would like to have the badge in my hand to see more, all IMO. of course.

Dave.

3748 Hussar · #6 15-11-09, 03:25 PM

Hi Andy,

I have taken mine off my board, measured it against a Vic Pattern badge, 1902/vic both 31mm, Kc 27 mm ish.

Does anyone else have a 1902 they could post ??

Regards

3748 Hussar

2747andy · #7 15-11-09, 06:25 PM

Tony,
Yours is 100% spot on, just look at the crown, it is about 2/3 the size of the one I've posted. The crown on the one I have posted measures 15 mm at its widest point and 14 mm high. The leaves are a bit of a red herring as they vary:

QVC - 7 each side
KC - 7 or 5 each side
QC - 5 each side

The badge in the post is 100% genuine, that is not an issue at all. The two marked areas to the rear of the crown are one where the slider has been removed and the second possibly where a makers plaque could have been fitted?

The size is as you say wrong (too small) for it to be an adapted KK 756, on reflection I think it may be a cross between a KK 755 and a KK 756. The badge shown in KK definately has a smaller crown. Pehaps this is a variant not illustrated before?

Andy

wright241 · #8 16-11-09, 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3748 Hussar

Hi Andy,

I have taken mine off my board, measured it against a Vic Pattern badge, 1902/vic both 31mm, Kc 27 mm ish.

Does anyone else have a 1902 they could post ??

Regards

3748 Hussar

I don't have a picture of mine with me but it does look to be the same
as the genuine one that Tony has posted.

2747andy · #9 16-11-09, 10:48 AM

Gentlemen,
many thanks on your contributions on this one! IMO the badge posted is a variation of KK 755 (Perhaps it could be refered to as KK 755(a)?) in that it has a larger crown, which could be down to a makers variation?? Although on all later variants I have the crown is the same size as KK 755(a) and not the smaller one posted by Tony. Possibly an interim design?

I have posted some other badges for comparison:

Picture 1 - Shows KK 754 alongside 755(a), they are exact with the exception of the crowns.
Picture 2 - Rear of KK 754 & 755(a) even the reverse detail is almost exact.
Picture 3 - A slidered KK 756 - note 7 leaves either side.
Picture 4 - Rear of above showing two small circular sweat holes to rear of base scroll, "IV" numerals are affixed via tabs.
Picture 5 - A lugged KK 756 - again 7 leaves either side.
Picture 6 - Rear of above showing four rectangular sweat holes, s to base scroll and one to each of the numerals. Here the "IV" has been brazed on.

2747andy · #10 16-11-09, 11:14 AM

Picture 1 - Shows a slidered KK 756, with maroon backing cloth - 7 leaves.
Picture 2 - Rear of above with rectangular sweat holes (x 4), two obscured by backing but the same as the lugged badge above..
Picture 3 - A slidered KK 756 and KK 1897 (QC) - note both have 5 leaves either side.
Picture 4 - Rear of the above KK 756, no sweat holes, I am happy that it is original so perhaps a later variation as the 5 leaves pattern is repeated on the QC badge?
Picture 5 - Rear of KK 1897 - Again I am happy that this is an original badge.

KK states that the QC pattern badge was sealed 23rd September 1954 and Gaylor that "he believed it was never worn". It was not until 1958 that the 4th merged with the 8th King's Royal Irish Hussars, so possible that old badges were retained for wear, although I suspect some QC badges may have been issued? Anyone got an anodised KK 1897? or a WW1 Economy all gilding metal issue???

Andy

3748 Hussar · #11 16-11-09, 01:09 PM

Andy

A WW1 Economy all gilding metal issue???::see pic its on a JR GUANTLONDON slider . 1V in White metal with sweat holes ???

Also posted a sil/gilt post 1902 . 1 of 2 blade fixings remain . Note size of the crown !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

Regards

3748 Hussar

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Picture 1 - Shows a slidered KK 756, with maroon backing cloth - 7 leaves.
Picture 2 - Rear of above with rectangular sweat holes (x 4), two obscured by backing but the same as the lugged badge above..
Picture 3 - A slidered KK 756 and KK 1897 (QC) - note both have 5 leaves either side.
Picture 4 - Rear of the above KK 756, no sweat holes, I am happy that it is original so perhaps a later variation as the 5 leaves pattern is repeated on the QC badge?
Picture 5 - Rear of KK 1897 - Again I am happy that this is an original badge.

KK states that the QC pattern badge was sealed 23rd September 1954 and Gaylor that "he believed it was never worn". It was not until 1958 that the 4th merged with the 8th King's Royal Irish Hussars, so possible that old badges were retained for wear, although I suspect some QC badges may have been issued? Anyone got an anodised KK 1897? or a WW1 Economy all gilding metal issue???

Andy

3748 Hussar · #12 16-11-09, 01:28 PM

Hi All

The size of the crown !!!!!!, attached offrs sil/gilt collar 1902 pattern . If anyone out there has his sister/brother I would be interested.

3748 Hussar

2747andy · #13 16-11-09, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3748 Hussar

Andy

A WW1 Economy all gilding metal issue???::see pic its on a JR GUANTLONDON slider . 1V in White metal with sweat holes ???

Also posted a sil/gilt post 1902 . 1 of 2 blade fixings remain . Note size of the crown !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

Regards

3748 Hussar

Tony,
that style of JR GAUNT LONDON is OK! However it appears more commonly on WW2 Era badges! I think it is more likely to be from that era than a WW1 Economy (I don't think they exist? Likewise an A/A version) but why a GM base scroll? Perhaps a makers error?..

The Officers badge is a cracker! What are the measurements of the crown on your ORs 755?

Andy

3748 Hussar · #14 16-11-09, 03:18 PM

Hi Andy,

Measurements for the Or's Pattern 755 small crown, looking at the rear from the 12 o’clock where the circlet meets the flat of the base of the crown 12mm.
13mm widest point.
Reference the WW1 Economy my mistake

I would agree that they don’t exist?

Info I have seen and had my hands on an offrs BZ QVC pattern/ and a 755 Bz pattern too. They exist and on my wants list.

Regards

3748 Hussar

Tony C

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Tony,
that style of JR GAUNT LONDON is OK! However it appears more commonly on WW2 Era badges! I think it is more likely to be from that era than a WW1 Economy (I don't think they exist? Likewise an A/A version) but why a GM base scroll? Perhaps a makers error?..

The Officers badge is a cracker! What are the measurements of the crown on your ORs 755?

Andy

davec2 · #15 16-11-09, 05:03 PM

Hello gentlemen,

I have already expressed my lack of knowledge where Cavalry Reg't's and badges are concerned but something Tony has written has confused me ? or am I confusing myself ??

Tony, you say that you have had a bronze QVC pattern badge in your hands, would that be a Service Dress cap badge ? or a bronzed version of the then, current QVC badge ?

The reason I ask, is because I was under the impression that the dress regulations, re the OSD badges, started in 1902 ??? can anyone tell me if I'm being a bit dim here ?

Dave.