RA man

[Mike]

I have a couple of photos here, portrait and group, allegedly of the same person. Group photo is poor condition. Only one possible I think is second left seated, anyone think this is the same person as portrait??


and if so what is the arm badge: crossed cannons, something (crown?) and a mullet? cannot seem to find this in Edwards and Langley.

[Mike]

also insignia at the shoulder sleeve just visible on a few of these chaps:

look like anything??

just RFA / RA or something else?

[zob]

Hi Mike,

Smashing photograph. If you look on page 40 of Denis Edwards and David Langleys you'll note the badge 25B G/Bl that was introduced for RA drivers - Quote: " A badge of crossed whips, spur and five pointed star (25B) existed c. 1910 (from photographic & catalogue evidence), but we have traced no official reference". Could this not be the one above the cannons crossed which I understand to represent 1st, 2nd or 3rd Prize or Gunnery Instructor).

Zob.

[NorthStafford]

I thought that they may have been crossed telescopes which could signify some sort of signalling qualification.

[Artynut]

Mike, I think I would go for the right end seated man as being the same as portrait. It's the lack of ear lobes where I see the likeness. Sleeve badge is a hard one unless there was a change in shooting prize badges. It appears to be a crown between the crossed cannons and star. That's my 2 cents worth! Regards, DJ.

[jeanpit-frenchy]

a question from the french rookie...

what did they wear on their left shouder ? what color, white ? did they wear it during WW1 ?

is it like in french "fouragere" ? . in france it is a Honorary mark only wear by some regiments. my corp (GENDARMERIE) wear 2 white "fouragere" on the left shoulder

[Mike]

Originally Posted by zob

Hi Mike,

Smashing photograph. If you look on page 40 of Denis Edwards and David Langleys you'll note the badge 25B G/Bl that was introduced for RA drivers - Quote: " A badge of crossed whips, spur and five pointed star (25B) existed c. 1910 (from photographic & catalogue evidence), but we have traced no official reference". Could this not be the one above the cannons crossed which I understand to represent 1st, 2nd or 3rd Prize or Gunnery Instructor).

Zob.

Hi Zob, that's it! didn't recognise it as anything 'till you pointed that out. - So looks like 2nd prize winner in Battery for horse-drawn artillery -crown over for 1st, star over for 2nd - I would guess this means superior horsemanship and control of the team of horses and the artillery piece - critical to a battery in a "tight spot" I am sure.

...and Looking at Edwards/Langley page 27: "cannons crossed" became "guns crossed" in 1898 and could be awarded to all men and NCOs in a prize winning battery or company (gunnery skills)

[Mike]

Originally Posted by Artynut

Mike, I think I would go for the right end seated man as being the same as portrait. It's the lack of ear lobes where I see the likeness. Sleeve badge is a hard one unless there was a change in shooting prize badges. It appears to be a crown between the crossed cannons and star. That's my 2 cents worth! Regards, DJ.

Hi DJ, I saw a crown as well, but now it's pointed out with a reference I can recognise two crossed whips and a spur.

In the face out of the group I picked I did notice the ear lobe, but then thought it was just noise in the image or something on the wicker background. That moustache doesn't help either.

The man is allegedly Driver Ernest Jones, Died 1918

[Mike]

Originally Posted by jeanpit-frenchy

a question from the french rookie...

what did they wear on their left shouder ? what color, white ? did they wear it during WW1 ?

is it like in french "fouragere" ? . in france it is a Honorary mark only wear by some regiments. my corp (GENDARMERIE) wear 2 white "fouragere" on the left shoulder

Hi JP-F, developed from a fuse key lanyard, then allegedly used as a jack knife attachment, and emergency firing lanyard - by modern times it became a purely distinctive uniform adornment . quite different from the French fouragere which is a granted honour.



from this page:

quote:

Origins of The Lanyard & The classic "Sapper Leg-pull"
There has long been a tale-usually told by Sappers-about the Gunners wearing a white lanyard for cowardice, allegedly for deserting their guns. Of course, the story is nothing more than a piece of leg pulling. The tradition of ‘winding up’ stems from the age-old rivalry between the two ‘sister’ corps founded under the Board of Ordnance and trained together in Woolwich. However, I am still being asked by Gunners whether this story is true, so it is time it was put to rest.
Lanyards associated with dress came into use in the late 19th Century, when field guns, such as the 12 and 15 pounders, used ammunition which had fuzes set with a fuze key. The key was a simple device, and every man had one, attached to a lanyard worn around the neck. The key itself was kept in the breast pocket until needed. The lanyard was a simple piece of strong cord, but it was gradually turned into something a bit more decorative, smartened up with ‘blanco’, and braided, taking its present form.
Prior to the South African War, Gunners were issued with steel folding hoof picks, carried on the saddle or in the knife. In about 1903 these were withdrawn and replaced with jack knives, which were carried in the left breast pocket of the Service Dress attached to a lanyard over the left shoulder. In the war years that followed, the lanyard could be used as an emergency firing lanyard for those guns which had a trigger firing mechanism, allowing the gunner to stand clear of the gun’s recoil.
The question of which shoulder bore the lanyard depends on the date. There is no certainty about this, but the change from the left shoulder to the right probably took place at about the time of the Great War, when a bandolier was introduced, because it was worn over the left shoulder. But there are some who insist that 1924 was the date of change, when sloping of rifles over the left shoulder would soil the white lanyard.
Eventually in 1933, the end of the lanyard was simply tucked into the breast pocket without the jack-knife, though many will remember that it was often kept in place with the soldier’s pay book! On the demise of ‘Battle Dress’, the lanyard disappeared for a short time, but returned as part of the dress of the Royal Regiment of Artillery in 1973.

[Mike]

Fourragère in my collection; croix de guerre ww1 colours with a plastic olive in the croix de guerre ww2 colours

9, 10 , or 11 unit mentions according to wikipedia.

a different beast to the humble RA Lanyard.

[jeanpit-frenchy]

thank you very much for your explanations mike

As I am particularly interested by ROYAL ARTILLERY, i must found one now

below my own fouragere, belt and shoulder starps (only worn 2 time by year on number 1 dress )

little pub for my corp
Gendarmerie nationale (France)

Formed in 1337 (as old as H.A.C i think....)
5 battle honnors on our flag 4 during napolenic WARS (HONDSCHOOTE, VILLODRIGO (again british cavalry), TAGUIN, SEBASTOPOL )and 1 indochine WAR(just post WW2 and 5 years before it became USA vietnam WAR.

[jeanpit-frenchy]

a french WW1 postcard.

the first guy on the right. the lanyard is on the left shoulder

[Sonofacqms]

Very interesting photographs, the Gunner appears to be wearing an Artillery badge with the moving wheel, this must dispose of the theory that they were worn only by senior NCO's and Warrant officers.

Also some of the men in the group shot appear to be wearing the field service type of hat, although not all at the same angle.

[54Bty]

The first set of images show the OR's SD Tunic with twisted cord on the shoulder worn from 1904-1913, the shoulder title of R.G.A. in Red on Dark Blue was worn from 1902-1903 (some units kept it up till c1905), the star and crossed whips is a skill in Driving (Horses) c1898-1939, and the Crossed Guns are the 3rd Prize for Gunnery 1898-1921.

The soldier in the second image is wearing the IMPERIAL SERVICE badge which was worn by members of the Territorial Force who had volunteered to serve overseas from 1912. Also the buttons down the front look to be the samller Ball buttons worn by the RHA.

The brass RA Cap badge with a raised wheel (which was made to rotate by the user by slackening the centre stud) was purchased from the Canteen (later NAAFI). It was not a special badge for the RHA, SNCO's or anyone else.

The RA Lanyard was issued as a plain white cord, which was sometimes plaited by the soldier, worn on the left shoulder until c1908 or after when it was moved to the right shoulder. There is no similarity to the French Fouragere.

[Mike]

Many thanks for all the info guys. Group image probably earlier than I thought.... interesting still, and something for me to work with anyway.