The Lothians & Border Horse Yeomanry

Gentlemen,

here are genuine officer's bullion cap badges of the L&BHY. The first one is an Officer's Service Dress cap badge of my own collection. According to the few pictures I have this pattern was in use during WWI onwards. According to a picture taken in Normandy in 1944, it also looks like some officers used that pattern on their black berets.



The second one is an officer's beret version as worn from 1939 until 1956 when the regiment was disbanded.


Third one is the OR's version, in brass. It seems that WWI pattern was mainly done with slider at the rear while WWII model had lugs. I'm not 100% sure about that as there are many many fakes for sale, so if anybody has information or references about that I'm willing to read them. This one is a genuine one who belonged to Serjeant Ferguson who landed at Welcheren Island on November 1st, 1944.

[2747andy]

Phil,
what are your thought's on the left hand badge that I've posted? In comparison with the standard size (albeit a Gaunt B'ham badge) on the right, it's a lot wider, the knot to the left of the stalks is with a slightly different style of tie and you can see the cut ends of the corn when viewed from below.

?

Andy

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Phil,
what are your thought's on the left hand badge that I've posted? In comparison with the standard size (albeit a Gaunt B'ham badge) on the right, it's a lot wider, the knot to the left of the stalks is with a slightly different style of tie and you can see the cut ends of the corn when viewed from below.
Andy

Andy,
it's an interesting "specimen" you have here. My very first thought would tend to say it is a genuine one. Why?
First don't worry about the size. I've just bought two genuine ones last week (will attach pix) and the garb is a little bit wider (as yours) than all the fakes you can find on eBan or else.
Then, the very bottom of the badge: I confess it is the very first time I see this one, in many cases you don't see the cut ends of the corn below, the stalk going all the way down. It doesn't mean yours is fake because of that. On the contrary, if I look at the knot, the condition of the badge, the cut of the corn, I doubt someone who would like to make a fake would have gone so far i the details, he would have probably stuck to the common pattern anyone knows.
Third point: the slider. Longer version here, it seems to be slightly on the left of the badge.
Fourth point: the knot. There are 2 versions of it. The lower right hand of it is either following the curve of the knot or, like yours and mine, slightly on the left.

Though I have -so far- no reference book, my comments here are based on what I've seen for years about these badges and on the ones I own which are 100% genuine. Of course, I can be wrong on this one, but honestly, if so (no one's perfect), it'd surprise me and would like to know why.
You should ask Tynesideirish about his viewpoint too. He also collects Lothians & Border stuff and has some cap badges. Two opinions would be better.

I attach some pictures of original ones, long and short slider versions. In the first picture, right badge, the knot is lightly different.

[2747andy]

Phil,
mine looks and feels genuine enough, nice solid and slightly tapered slider the badge itself has not been subjected to a good polishing (thank god) and still retains a lot of original gilt finish!

It would be intersting to see what other members have to say, It's the only one I've seen with the cut ends showing?

Andy

[ncc]

officers collar badges of the lothian and berwick imperial yeomanry.
tunic named to ' rt hon. the earl of gifford.c 1902-08.

ps if anyone wishes to part with £100 for one of the collars,i will throw in the other collar the 13 LBIY buttons and i'll even throw in the tunic although it is a bit mothed.

[tynesideirish]

Hi Andy, Just surfed in. I've never seen a badge with bottom like yours. As you probably know the usual way is for the stalk lines to just carry on over the lip.

The fact that Gilt remains probably means it's a Post war PRI bought SNCO's capbadge. But this is only an educated assumtion.

There is little out there on the insignia of this Regiment and even books like 'Yeomanry Wars' only ever show one of each rank so to speak.

It's either a very badly copied (IE: Wrongly copied) fake or genuine, as obviously a simple restrike is exactly that.

I'll be looking out for another now.

[Chrisr]

Originally Posted by LBHY

Third one is the OR's version, in brass. It seems that WWI pattern was mainly done with slider at the rear while WWII model had lugs. I'm not 100% sure about that as there are many many fakes for sale, so if anybody has information or references about that I'm willing to read them.

LBHY,

The attached badge is one I do know the origin of. Purchased 1965 in a biscuit tin of badges. several in mint condition, from a good mate who had emigrated from the UK in the mid-1950's. According to him, his uncle had collected the badges from soldiers during WW2 and given them to my mate before he left the UK.

It is in mint condition and if I didn't know the origins of it, one would think it was a re-strike with the misplaced slider and greyish braising at the top of the slider. It came with some good yeomanry badges, including an unused Lanarkshire Yeomanry with four lugs and a Fife & Forfar Yeomanry with a slider.

Cheers
Chris

Hi Chris,
yes, you're totally right and I really apologize for the mistake. Lothians badges with slider were in use during WWII and I was wrong thinking they were only WWI.
Does anyone know why these difference in the length of the sliders? Was it due to the maker or does it mean something else?

Cheers
Phil

[tynesideirish]

Phil, The length of slider is mainly down to the headdress they where intended for. The longer sliders are for the cap. The lugs are to stop the badge being shook free and lost on horseback. Shorter slidered ones purely for the beret.

Capbadges with sliders should have been worn in WW2. However it is a brave man who can say "ONLY this or that was worn during these dates!" as usual a son may have followed into the family unit and the old badges are passed on, or the wearer has a preference for lugs.

I've posted a postcard on here showing pre WW1 LBHY wearing the large garb and at least one wearing the old small titled LBHY one, which he shouldn't be wearing.

As mentioned in previous posts, Tankies? Tankers? where reluctant to wear lugs in the armour as they usually ended up imbeded in the forehead.

When a unit doesn't change it's cap insignia through out most of the 20th century life is made difficult for us collectors. Answer... Buy them all!

[lettman]

Originally Posted by Chrisr

LBHY,

The attached badge is one I do know the origin of. Purchased 1965 in a biscuit tin of badges. several in mint condition, from a good mate who had emigrated from the UK in the mid-1950's. According to him, his uncle had collected the badges from soldiers during WW2 and given them to my mate before he left the UK.

It is in mint condition and if I didn't know the origins of it, one would think it was a re-strike with the misplaced slider and greyish braising at the top of the slider. It came with some good yeomanry badges, including an unused Lanarkshire Yeomanry with four lugs and a Fife & Forfar Yeomanry with a slider.

Cheers
Chris

Chris,
I have a very similar example -- it came off a board of badges assembled a long time ago, so that the face is slightly weathered but the back is absolutely pristine 'golden', and also with a short slider (the only difference is the brazing is also shiny gold).

[Chrisr]

Hi Lettman,

The braising on mine is a bit of a mystery. I would have thought a gold colour braising material would have been the norm. I wondered if the slider had come off and been re-attached but I don't think so looking the way it has been done. As I mentioned earlier had I not known the origin of it I would have been looking for another one.

Cheers
Chris

[lettman]

Chris,
That greyish brazing is a common feature on those 'ordnance issue' type of Canadian badges from WW2, which are also made of a very yellow shiny GM.

[Chrisr]

Thank you Lettman. I hadn't realised that.
Cheers
Chris

[orasot]

Hi All, Just thought I'd add pics of mine to this interesting thread, this lot came with a brooched example too, Wilf.

[tynesideirish]

Here's the Jacket I bought of ncc.

It's as described previously, worn and mothed, I'm very happy with it!