Leicestershire Yeomanry

[Alan O]

I enclose a photograph of my four LY OR badges. Having recently bought the WM one I have been doing some research on the LY to date them more accurately.

Top left 1912-15 GM
Top right 1930(?)-52 GM
Bottom right 1952-57 WM
Bottom left 1957-60 Bi-M. Maker-marked JR Gaunt London

This website is very informative and not just for badges. All dates are taken from the LY site and are more precise than K&K.

For example it comfirms the suspicion that the 1915 First World War Cap badge was a cap badge and a collar badge. It is never found on a slider but with N-S lugs. The lack of a slider is one reason that I have never bought one. This also debunks Gaylor's silly story that they 'forgot' the SAfrica honour.
There are some other interesting dates on there including the date of the introduction of the post war wm one and the scarce bi-metal Leicestershire and Derbyshire Yeo. The fact that the regt could not get a/a from the system but had to buy their own a/a badges from a surplus shop is priceless.

Alan

http://www.paoyeomanry.co.uk/LY5.htm

[Sonofacqms]

I have a Leicestershire Imperial Yeomanry cap badge with the "I" carefully cut out, from the appearance, this piece of vandalism was done very well, probably when the change from Imperial Yeomanry took place. Anything to save money! Thanks for bringing this interesting website to my attention Alan, it's really first class.

[Jibba Jabba]

Imperial yeomanry badges continued to be worn into WW1, by original members of the Imperial Yeomanry. I have a badge converted for wear on the WW1 topee with a full A4 write up about the previous owner which proves the theory.

[GriffMJ]

Hi All

Thanks to Alan for inviting me into the forum.

Re: The Leicestershire (Prince Albert's Own) Yeomanry

Some Questions from Alan:-

1. First of all why did the LY wreath badge stop being used in 1915? From your site it would seem that this was due to the change in the Officers' badge?

Answer: This is not clear within regimental history, but an educated guess would be that shortly after the regiments achievment at the "Battle of Frezenberg Ridge" in May 1915, where they held the line for the whole of the 7th Cavalry Brigade as part of 3rd cavalry Division. An action that also lost their Colonel, The Honourable P C Evans-Freke and almost all of the original "Yeomanry" Officers and a 2/3rds of the regiment. In order to mark this event a change of cap badge was introduced in 1916 as a badge of honour it seems. The Officers kept their pattern and the O/Rs were given a crude version of the Officer pattern without the South Africa scroll. Initially this badge was worn as a cap badge but then also used as a collar badge after the War ended.

The above shows the O/Rs "crude" LY Crest (1916 to c1930s).


The officers cap badge from 1914 onwards.

2. The collar badge that replaced it in 1915, was used until when? K&K include it in Volume One, which goes up to 1919, but not in Volume 2 thus implying that the smaller badge with the South Africa Scroll was used from 1920. This is one of the problems with K&K in that Kipling's script infers things without actually stating a fact.

This badge was introduced in 1916 and was a cap badge first and used until circa 1930. Col. G R Codrington (1928-32) allowed the use of the Officer pattern badge within the ranks. Codrington was the sole surviving officer from the Frezenberg Battle in May 1915 (as OC A Squadron), he had been shot through the lung and invalided back home and was very proud of his men and the regiment throughout his life.

**Other officers did survive but moved onto other regiments.

*** A point to note here is that the Officers early LY Crest was 1mm thinner than the post 1922 badge. The early crest was used as a collar badge by the officers first and then a cap badge going into the Great War.

3. Is this collar badge what you refer to below as the 'crude version of the crest'?

Yes, the "crude" version was a very poor attempt at the officers cap badge. This is probably by design or it could be that they were made on the cheap just to get them done. The actual design is incorrect showing three Ostrich feathers instead of 5 Peacock feathers and the conical cap and the two ducal crowns are very poorly done. However, only people with and understanding of the heraldic mistakes would have noticed and this is probably why the badge was replaced.

The crude badge can be seen here c1924 on an A Sqn Sgt, notice that no collar badges are worn in this period. All the "genuine" badges that I have seen have been lugged. The genuine badge is also a yellow brass with a good thickness and weight to the badge and often seen with grinding marks on the reverse side of the badge to flatten the edges. The badge is a very solid badge and could be likened to a horse brass in its manufacture.

** There is a mistake in the making of the LDY badge also, as it was made with 3 Peacock feathers instead of the correct 5.


The bi-metal Leicestershire & Derbyshire (PAO) Yeomanry [LDY] badge was a short lived badge. The introduction of the AA badge appeared shortly after the new regiment had formed consequently making the brass bi-metal badge a very rare item in todays collectors market. There is a distinct difference between the Officers and O/Rs brass bi metal. The officers has a smooth back side to the badge and a silver lug of the LY crest can bee seen on the back. The O/Rs badge was die struck and the silver lug(s) of the LY crest cant be seen on the back of the negative image of the badge.

The above shows the LDY Officers badge.

** Officially the LDY's nomenclature as recorded by the War Office in 1957 is : Leicestershire & Derbyshire (Prince Albert's Own Yeomanry)

best regards
Griff M-J
www.paoyeomanry.co.uk

[GriffMJ]

Hi Alan

The LY Badges pictured in your post:

Top Left = 1908-15 (Other ranks) White metal mostly used.
Top Right = Post 1939. Bronze; S/Silver; Gilt, Brass O/R; (white metal O/R from 1952 onwards).
Bottom left = 1957-60 Bi-M. Maker-marked JR Gaunt London, Die stamped. (Other ranks)
Bottom right = c1928 pattern, thin crest, posted or lugged. White metal Collar first then Bronze & S/Silver (Officer) then White metal & Brass O/Rs

Left c1928 pattern (thin), Right post c1939 pattern (fat)
Badges are the same height (Photo makes one look bigger). Both patterns used up to 1957.

best regards
Griff M-J

[Alan O]

Thanks for the info about the white metal one. I had not considered an Officers badge as it as a slider and is die struck. It is clearly thinner than the 1922 brass one.

Alan

[sean michael cronin]

Fantastic badge site, very well done. All the best Sean.

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by Alan Owen

Thanks for the info about the white metal one. I had not considered an Officers badge as it as a slider and is die struck. It is clearly thinner than the 1922 brass one.

Alan

Hi Alan

This "pattern" was also worn by other ranks after 1928 ...... its just that the initial pattern (die) was the pattern used for the white metal collar badges first seen c1907 worn by the Officers of the LIY.

Best regards
Griff M-J

[Alan O]

Got it. many thanks. Still post 1952 then?

Alan

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by Alan Owen

Got it. many thanks. Still post 1952 then?

Alan

Hi Alan

The c1907 pattern posted thin pattern white metal would have been worn before 1952 by the other ranks in Blues dress. All "Blues" badges and buttons within the LY PAO regiment were white metal for all ranks. I have a 1930s other ranks Blues jacket with c1907 pattern white metal collar badges, so therfore the cap badge would have been a posted c1907 pattern white metal badge.

The 1952 rule that I have stated is that "all" badges worn by the regiment were white metal from that point on. Yellow Brass badges were not worn in kakhi dress even though they were available...... this was a regimental standing order apparently.

Best regards
Griff M-J

[Alan O]

Griff,

Very informative reponse. Many thanks. I shall now have to continue looking for the second pattern w/m one.

Alan

[GriffMJ]

Hi Alan

The w/m post 1922 fat pattern is a rare item. The best place to find them is at auctions like Bosleys. You will have to buy them as a job lot with other badges unfortunatley and for this reason they are rare when it comes to buying them individually. Suprisingly its easier to find the c1907 pattern w/m as an individual item.

best regards
Griff M-J

[ncc]

i think you will find that the early 1907 pattern badge ,that you refer to as officers collar badge has I.Y. in the top right scroll and not YEO.

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by ncc

i think you will find that the early 1907 pattern badge ,that you refer to as officers collar badge has I.Y. in the top right scroll and not YEO.

Hi NCC

The Officers wire Cap badge was LIY, the collars are "Prince Albert's Own Yeo"

c1907 Officer Collar badge

[ncc]

k&k 1318 IY where yours has yeo.in my opinion wrongly attributed as a cap badge,i have seen most of the caps with badges on but i have not seen this one on a cap.