Essex Yeomanry

[Jibba Jabba]

This is my bargain of the day a pair of matched collars and beret badge to the Essex Yeomanry for under ten pounds.

I was actually going to leave the beret badge behind, then I noticed the flat back reverse construction.

Always hard to find a complete matched set of collars and cap to any yeomanry.

[Malcolm Davey]

Excellent jj nice find, as you said nice to get matching cap and collars.
The only matching (both front and back) cap and collars I have are East Yorkshire OSD.

Malc

[Jibba Jabba]

Thanks Malc, your comments are always very much appreciated.

I know very little about the Essex Yeomanry but I know that many beret badges from WW2 were infact collars, Ox and Bucks is one we have already discussed.

According to my favourite book the cap badge that should of been worn in this time frame was Essex Yeomanry in the circulate and an additional base scroll with the motto inside.

Although you cannot identify the difference from the front it would appear the centre badge is twice the weight of the collars and is cast not unlike an OSD, it has no traces of bronze finish on it anywhere.

The chap in the photo I believe is in a post D-Day rig. It appears as if hes wearing brass shoulder titles? At this timer Essex Yeo were part of the RA.

From some chap on eBay who seams to know something about this unit:

191st Field Regiment ( Harts & Essex Yeomanry )R.A.

It entered France in support of 2nd Canadian AGRA on D-Day + 3. The guns were used during the assault on Caen and later with the 4th R.M. Commando Brigade, 3rd & 4th Parachute Brigade and others. They were in action at various well known places on the way north up the coast even at Dunkirk. They were finaly dispanded after a parade at Roosendaal on December 3rd D + 180.

[rubicon]

Hello JJ from Normandy,

Thanks for showing your nice badges and the picture of the Essex Yeomanry gunner. In fact this man is a gunner of the 147th Field Regiment RA (The Essex Yeomanry) and absolutly not from the 191st Field Regiment RA which had worn different badges and regimental shoulder flashes during the WWII.
The 147th Field Regiment RA was a SP Field Regiment and had 24 Sexton (25 Pds gun). The regiment landed on D-Day at Asnelles on Jig sector of Gold Beach, 3km to the Est of Arromanches (I live on Gold Beach!).
This field regiment was a 2nd Army unit but was under command of the 231st Infantry Brigade for the landing and served under command of the 8th ind. Armoured Brigade for all the North West Europ campain 1944-45.
The gunner on the picture is wearing the cap badge worn according Mr Gaylor 1909-1916 and also on the FS, GSC and beret during and after the WWII.
It is very interresting to note the gunner is also wearing the black beret of the Armoured Corps and RTR as it used to be also by the 86th SP Field Regiment RA (the Hertfordshire Yeomanry) from 1943 until the end of the war.
He is also wearing the formation sign of the 8th Ind. Armoured Brigade. (He should had worn the 2nd Army formation sign). He appears to wear metal shoulder titles EY but not sure. I think the picture has been taken in 1945 or a bit latter, because the authorization for OR to wear tie and open collar was given in Decembre 1944.
That's it all I can say for the moment. I Would be interrested to ear further information about the metal shoulder title EY. Adopted officially around 1952 I think in fact it would have been worn during the war...
Cheers J-F

[Jibba Jabba]

Thanks for replying JF.

I confess I am no expert but the 191st was formed from men from the essex Yeomanry.

The 86th (Harts Yeomanry) Field Regiment and the 147th (Essex Yeomanry) Field Regiment. Both Territorial. Produced the 191st (Harts & Essex Yeomanry) Field Regiment R.A.

Thanks.

[Jibba Jabba]

I think they had several regiments running at the same time. This is a great web site:

http://www.essex-yeomanry.org.uk/

Dares me to send them an email to ask why!

[Alan O]

The answer is that in 1937 many TF regts raised second Bns. Yeomanry were the same. I did research the Berkshire Yeo a while back and they too had a second Regt. One regt was in the Far East while a number of the rest were in Germany. War losses and re-roling saw a number amalgamated with other Yeo units which is why it can get so complicated.

The badge shown in the beret is K&K 2331 and is a smaller badge design utilised for wear in the beret. I would point out that the title is DECUS ET TUTAME which is the same as the colars so it is quite probably a collar badge. This practice of wearing collars as caps on the beret was the same for the RA and NY as well as others.

The smaller beret badge with the additonal scroll shown in Gaylors book is K&K 1491 and was probably post war as most beret badges were not introduced until quite late on. K&K do not give a sealed pattern date for it unfortunately.

The black beret is an interesting feature and was shared by a number of Yeo units who after WW1 had worn RTC berets and badges whne the re-roled. They often kept the black berets even after returning to their original badges. Examples include Northants Yeo (both 1st and 2nd) and the Westmintser Dragooons.

Alan

[Jibba Jabba]

Hi Alan thank you for the very informative response. I had a closer closer look at some of the photos on the web site and it would appear they alose wore a OR's cloth/bullion badge.

These could very be two collar badges, these were all there were in the box.

This next shot I hope illustrates the differences. The cast badge is twice the weight of the die struck.

[rubicon]

Dragonz18 is right when he states the rubans worn by the gunner is a clue for dating the picture. As far as I can make out the rubans, I think he is wearing only the 39/43 Star and France & Germany Star. The War Medal seems not to be worn. We know this last ruban was not worn until the beginning of 1946. So I would date the picture around the second part of 1944.
JJ you are right about the 191st Field Regiment RA (The Herts and Essex Yeomanry). On the 16 Decembre 1942, 86th Field Regt RA and 147th Field Regt RA were ordered to provide cadres of approximately battery strengh for the new regiment to be numbered 191st. The three new batteries were numbered 532,533 and 534. The nucleus of 532 Bty was provided by 413 Bty of the 147th FR RA, 533 Bty were drawn from the 462 Bty of the 86th FR RA and the 534 Bty were staffed by a roughly equal number from each... The cap badges worn by officers and OR of the 191st FR RA were the standard RA cap badge "Gun" and "Grenade". However a distinctive regimental flash was adopted in April 1943 and worn on both sleeves of the Battle Dress.The regimental flash incorporated the Hertforshire Yeomanry 's Hart as well the three seaxes of Essex. The 191st Field Regiment RA landed as follow up force on the 9th June 1944 in front of Graye-Sur-Mer (West of Courseulles-Sur-Mer) and was placed under command of the C.C.R.A. of the 3rd Canadian Infantry division for supporting the Canadian division. Until its disbandement in December 1944, the regiment served mostly with the Canadians (2nd Canadian AGRA).
Cheers.
J-F

[Expat Yeoman]

Just to pick up on some of the previous points:

1. lugs v sliders. The cap badge version of this badge (and most other EY) has a slider but as noted lugged versions were also worn as cap as well as collars

2. Regiments. There were in fact three Essex Yeomanry Regiments at that time, 104th, 147th and 191 - all RA (plus a Battery detached from 104 and sent out to Burma). Formation of 147th as the second line and 191st with Herts Yeo both referred to previously in this thread.

Reason for mentioning - A die-stamped collar version was locally produced by 104 when in Italy - I wonder whether this could be the left hand badge illustrated?

3. Shoulder titles. EY were certainly worn prior to 1952 as a single piece title, there was also a two-piece E Y worn by the 3/1st EY at the end of the Great War.

4. Cloth badges. To the best of my knowledge there hasn't been a bullion or embroidered Essex Yeomanry badge worn by other ranks. There was an officer's bullion pattern (based upon KK1493) worn briefly in the war.

Post war, as a Signal Squadron, there have been Officer and OR beret badges produced, these are the standard Royal Signals Jimmy but on a red felt.

Michael

[LONGSHANKS]

Hi team, does anyone have a rear shot of the cap badge prior the addition of the scroll in 1916. I'm interested in seeing the back and the lug locations. If a collar, should it have them close together toward the top E/W.

Looked in the galleries and searched, but nothing came up

Thanks

[Tinto]

Hi Simon,
Here is one of my Essex Yeomanry badges. Not sure if it's what you wanted. It measures about 35mm high, lugs E-W.
Cheers, Tinto

[LONGSHANKS]

Hi Tinto, thanks for that. I think I've been looking at a collar then. I attached a pic. Sorry for the size, but as you can see the lugs are way up top compared to yours.

Simon.

[Tinto]

Hi Simon,
Note the different motto in these badges.
Cheers, Tinto

[LONGSHANKS]

I can just about make out some difference, you have any idea the meaning of the difference.

Simon.