17/21st lancers what is it?

[cbuehler]

A recent aquisition with some reservations. It does not appear to be WM, nor silver. It seems to be cast rather than die struck as it is quite thick and heavy without the expected definition on the reverse. The slider is London badge and button co. ltd.
Has anyone seen a motto such as this, or are we looking at some fakers monstrosity?

CB

[Alan O]

I suspect what you have there is a badge made for private purchase. LB&BCo are a recognised maker. The Regtl PRI shop sells such badges as a/a replacements.

Alan

[cbuehler]

Aha! So I presume this to be a fairly recent motto?

CB

[Alan O]

LB&B are a fairly modern company - certainly 1990s rather than 1960s vintage.

Alan

[Chrisr]

Originally Posted by Alan Owen

I suspect what you have there is a badge made for private purchase. LB&BCo are a recognised maker. The Regtl PRI shop sells such badges as a/a replacements.

Alan

So is it a "fake" or a genuine badge?

[Alan O]

A matter of personal choice. The company was set up in 1973 so it is not likely to be a badge made for the MOD as a/a was in use by then and it is not the improved metal ones seen in the last few years. It has been made for commercial sale but whether that is to the Regtl PRI, a military museum or a shp then I cannot tell you.

Alan

[Saddle tree maker]

This is a badge that has been made for commercial purposes and not through a tendered WO/ACD contract. These badges, like many other badges past and present (AMMO especially) may very well turn up in the PRI as replacements and this is the very reason the soldiers have to pay for them, as opposed to their issued badge.
They will be found on sale at museums, souvenier shops and are on sale to dealer's in the collector's market.
So, as Alan said about personal choice, collect them if you wish, but I consider them repro.
STM.

[Mike]

this Royal Hussars thread may be of interest as it may be a similar situation:

no official Bim issue but a trooper clearly remembers the Regimental decision to replace anodised and start wearing a Bimetal version.

Again as said it's a personal choice but if the royal hussars changed to a bimetal version en masse then I would need one in my collection if I collected to that regiment.

[Saddle tree maker]

Got to be very careful with these so called private purchase badges as alot never went near the armed forces.
I consider AMMO to be restriker's plain and simple.
When I was kid, the Army and Navy stores used to have barrels full of these badges by Gaunt, Marples, Dowler, AMMO etc for 10p each and while some did make it, according to men who served, into the PRI, I suspect many more never and I personally have always avoided them.
I also believe LB&B are following this commercial route.
It comes down to the fact that if a badge is commercially available, how can you tell if yours is from a museum shop or from the army ?
Another thought aswell . . . Are there any photo's of these metal badges being worn, because all the ones I've looked at, the soldiers are wearing their issued badge, usually A/A.
My advice to new collector's is leave these badges alone.
It's a can of worms.
STM.

[Chrisr]

Thank you Alan and STM. All good points

Cheers
chris

[Cardiffbloke]

[QUOTE=Saddle tree maker;15153]Got to be very careful with these so called private purchase badges as alot never went near the armed forces.
I consider AMMO to be restriker's plain and simple.
When I was kid, the Army and Navy stores used to have barrels full of these badges by Gaunt, Marples, Dowler, AMMO etc for 10p each and while some did make it, according to men who served, into the PRI, I suspect many more never and I personally have always avoided them.
I also believe LB&B are following this commercial route.
It comes down to the fact that if a badge is commercially available, how can you tell if yours is from a museum shop or from the army ?
Another thought aswell . . . Are there any photo's of these metal badges being worn, because all the ones I've looked at, the soldiers are wearing their issued badge, usually A/A.
My advice to new collector's is leave these badges alone.
It's a can of worms.
STM.[/QUOT

I would like to contribute on this thread (even though it focuses in on the 'Boneheads' specifically), because a number of sweeping comments have been made about private purchase badges.

Having served as a QDG for 32 years (Trooper to Major) I can categorically state here and now for the collecting record, that the official 'issued' QDG badge; a 'Staybright' version which has been produced by a multiplicity of manufacturers over time and issued to the 'system'. Has never been worn; currently is not worn; and will never be worn at Regimental duty.

The only badge worn by ORs in QDG to date, will have been purchased on arrival at RD from the PRI. That badge will be made of WM and will have been supplied to the PRI by a number of manufacturers over time. I can think of 3 that have provided QDG with their badges since 1959, all with slight die variations.

My own experience of arriving at RD is typical of the time….. arrived on the Friday, spent all weekend getting my kit ready for Monday’s first parade…..standing on parade with B Sqn on the Monday resplendent in my beret with 'Staybright' badge, green plastic belt and puttees only to have the SSM rip me a new hole, stamp on my badge, put me in nick with the instruction to turn up at the 2pm parade with a 'buffed' WM "proper" badge, a black polished 37 pattern webbing belt with brasses gleaming and a pair of black polished gaiters above my boots.

Sadly the belt has gone west; thankfully the gaiters are in the museum and mercifully we in the QDG still wear a "proper" badge.... and if you want photos.... I have an MFO box full.....

PS. I did mention on another thread that QDG are currently in receipt of a new issued metal badge replacing Staybright. The RSM informs me that the ‘jury is out’ on it’s quality and suitability for ‘buffing’ so at the moment they are still wearing the current purchased PRI version.

[Saddle tree maker]

If you want to fill your collection with all the crap AMMO and the like have knocked out over all these years, please feel free to do so.
STM.

[Cardiffbloke]

Originally Posted by Saddle tree maker

If you want to fill your collection with all the crap AMMO and the like have knocked out over all these years, please feel free to do so.
STM.

I'm sorry? I'm not sure what you mean by that.... forgive me, but are you suggesting that the only badge worthy of collecting is the badge that has been 'issued'? If that is the case then you have clearly lost the plot! What of Officer's badges? Always purchased never issued. What of Regiments like mine, where issued badges were deemed not good enough? What of Regiment's like KDG who were issued GM badges but never wore them, choosing only to wear WM badges?
I know that collecting is a minefield and the individual collector has the final say on what he puts in to his own collection, but to make sweeping statements like this is short sighted and silly.
I grant you that sifting through the crap is difficult, but with a little perseverance and diligence it is fairly straightforward to get a reasonably clear idea of what was worn and what wasn't.....
What is the point of only filling your collection with items issued but never worn at the expense of items purchased and always worn....

[Saddle tree maker]

I am talking specifically about the cap badges that have been produced in massive number for commercial sale.
The badges you mention may not have been issued and/or worn, but the difference is - they were produced for the armed forces, or for purchase by the armed forces and not general sale to the public.
I have no problem with private purchase badges, but I do have a problem with collector's being led to believe that the thousands of badges made that didn't end up in the PRI are to be considered genuine and are therefore collectable.
If AMMO or whoever, stamped out 5000 15th19th hussars badges, and let us say for argument's sake, 2000 ended up in the army stores, that does not make ALL of these badges private purchase and it does not make them all in any way original.
I have got about 12 RH 'PP' badges all by LB&B that have never been near the armed forces, so in my opinion these are not genuine badges.
It is for this reason, I personally avoid them, and I think it good advice for new collector's to avoid them too, though that is their choice.
Sweeping statements are only that if you interpret them as such, but it is in fact just an opinion based on my own point of view.
STM.

[John Mulcahy]

Although I do not collect to any of the regiments concerned , I have found this thread very interesting.

My learning from the posts is that if you are serious about your collecting you will research your subject and try to understand what was worn and when

Whether one includes private purchase items in ones collection or not is down to personal choice.

The type of information provided about the QDG is very valuable (I try to seek it out for the regiments that interest me) , personally if I collected their insignia I would want to include these private purchase items.

The value of a forum like this (regardless of your point of view on what you will or will not collect) is that it helps make the data available on which to make such a choice.

John