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-   -   Leicestershire - Long Slider (https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51028)

Jelly Terror 29-01-16 03:07 PM

Leicestershire - Long Slider
 
8 Attachment(s)
Been discussing the attached badge recently with a forum friend. We both feel it has a first pattern slider (c. 1903-1906), which is approx. 45mm in length. Perhaps forum members might like to add their thoughts?

With thanks.

Attachment 140535Attachment 140536Attachment 140537Attachment 140538
Attachment 140539Attachment 140540Attachment 140541Attachment 140542

GriffMJ 29-01-16 03:18 PM

Loving the detail images..... there is a thread that discusses the Pith helmet socket fitting and the associated long shank on badges. :)

2747andy 29-01-16 05:55 PM

1 Attachment(s)
JT,
it is just the standard 1903-06 pattern slider and I'm pretty sure nothing to do with the Pagri socket. That's just dealers spin to hike up the price! The slider was introduced in 1903 to accommodate fitting to the Brodrick cap and later (1906) shortened on the introduction of the forage cap. The Pagri slider is a slightly different beast, longer again than the 1903 slider by about 10 mm, about 1-2 mm wider at the top with a gradual taper and a squared end.

Here is a ASC "Cap Badge" and a converted KOYLI "Smasher" hat badge fitted with a "Pagri" slider. Shown either side of the said "Socket". I am not saying the long slidered cap badges were not used in the Pagri, just that, that was not their intended use!

The Pagri slider/shank is more commonly found on converted HPC.

Andy

John Mulcahy 29-01-16 07:14 PM

I agree with JT & Andy - first pattern slider

KLR 29-01-16 07:20 PM

Interestingly, I have 1st WW pattern KLR badges (regular and TF) with short and long sliders. There are also a lot of long sliders on the 1926 Patt KLR - thought to be for wear in the side cap (I can't remember the exact date these were [re]introduced at the mo). They were held in place by being sewn on, even through a hole at the bottom of the slider.

Jelly Terror 29-01-16 07:32 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by KLR (Post 342221)
Interestingly, I have 1st WW pattern KLR badges (regular and TF) with short and long sliders. There are also a lot of long sliders on the 1926 Patt KLR - thought to be for wear in the side cap (I can't remember the exact date these were [re]introduced at the mo). They were held in place by being sewn on, even through a hole at the bottom of the slider.

This, on RWF, badge:

Attachment 140575

KLR 29-01-16 07:45 PM

Yes exactly - I think Peter B has a nice photograph of a holed slider sewn into a side cap. I've also seen one with two holes somewhere.

mooke07 29-01-16 07:51 PM

I suggested to JT that as this was IMO a long slider 1903-06 Leicestershire Regiment cap badge that it may have been a pagri badge. My suggestion was based upon the 1st Battalion being stationed at Fort St. George, Madras in India during the period 1903-06, after active service in South Africa. I have seen many pictures of Leicestershire badges being worn in the pagri of the pith helmet during its time in India.

It was circumstantial and did not take into account other regular Battalion Leicestershire regiment cap badges with the long shank version was specifically for the Broderick cap.

Still learning, cheers Dean.

Jelly Terror 29-01-16 11:47 PM

Gents,

Thanks to you all for your replies. Some interesting points. Very much appreciate your input.

'Ticker' Riley 30-01-16 12:30 PM

Jelly Terror's longer slidered Leicesters badge
 
Hi JT

Sorry I’m a little late coming in on this one, but I’m only an infrequent visitor to the Forum these days. Anyhow, back in 2010 I made a number of postings about some Leicesters TF badges I have with longer sliders, both of which are approximately 45mm (1¾ʹʹ) in length, firstly on this thread and then here.

One of the badges, which was made by J. R. Gaunt & Son, I had obtained from a fellow collector, and Forum member, who told me it was a puggaree/pugari badge. Presumably he had been led to believe this based on the longer than normal slider. The other badge, which is of more direct relevance to this thread, is the ‘kitten-faced’ type and so is the exact same makers’ variant as yours; save that it does not have the top ‘Hindoostan’ scroll of course. For convenience here are the images of this badge again:


I am sure that many Forum members are familiar with the excellent work done by Julian (KLR) in establishing how the original length of the vertical shank (slider), which had first been used on badges for the Brodrick Cap (NP Forage Cap) when it was introduced in 1903, had been shortened in 1906. Back in 2010 this led me to speculate that my badges had possibly been worn in the Brodrick, however the difficulty with this suggestion is the fact that the top scroll-less Territorial Force badges only came in around 1908 by which time the Brodrick Cap had been officially replaced by the NP Field Service Cap; this coming in about 1906 and, apparently, resulting in the need to shorten the sliders on badges for this.

At the time Julian also pointed out here that whilst he was sure the length of sliders had been shortened in 1906 he could not confirm what the original length had been, and suspected it may have been much long than 45mm and could have actually been around 60mm. Although I do not collect helmet plate centres, which I understand were used as pugari badges, something Andy (2747andy) has already noted above, I was under the impression that these were in the region of 60mm in length?

On one of the 2010 threads Alan (AlanO) thought that the longer circa 45mm sliders may have been worn on the “standard peaked cap as used throughout WW1”, though I don’t think we ever settled this, and personally I’m still at a loss as to what kind of headgear my two Leicesters TF badges with their longer slider were worn on!! What I am pretty sure of, however, is that both my ‘kitten-faced’ TF badge above, and your regulars one, are pre-First World War. Although I haven’t been able to yet identify the actual manufacturer of these, I have quite a few of their badges and my personal belief is that those examples with the smaller narrowish oblong braze holes are the earlier ones.

Interestingly Dean (mooke07) has the ‘cousin’ of my longer slider ‘kitten-faced’ TF badge in one of his albums here, but his looks to have had its slider shortened!!! By the way, Dean, I’d be interested in seeing these “pictures of Leicestershire badges being worn in the pagri of the pith helmet during its time in India” that you mention please – maybe you could PM me about this? Finally, and in relation to this, there is the following snippet From the Green Tiger, Vol. III, No. 8, August 1907, p. 90:


I suppose what we really need is someone who has a Brodrick and a badge with a 45mm slider to see how things look together!? Anyroad, hope some of this is of interest?

Best regards

Martin

Jelly Terror 31-01-16 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KLR (Post 342221)
Interestingly, I have 1st WW pattern KLR badges (regular and TF) with short and long sliders. There are also a lot of long sliders on the 1926 Patt KLR - thought to be for wear in the side cap (I can't remember the exact date these were [re]introduced at the mo). They were held in place by being sewn on, even through a hole at the bottom of the slider.

Julian,

By 'long sliders', would these be the same 45mm length as the slider on my Leicesters example?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Ticker' Riley (Post 342323)
Hi JT

Sorry I’m a little late coming in on this one, but I’m only an infrequent visitor to the Forum these days. Anyhow, back in 2010 I made a number of postings about some Leicesters TF badges I have with longer sliders, both of which are approximately 45mm (1¾ʹʹ) in length, firstly on this thread and then here.

One of the badges, which was made by J. R. Gaunt & Son, I had obtained from a fellow collector, and Forum member, who told me it was a puggaree/pugari badge. Presumably he had been led to believe this based on the longer than normal slider. The other badge, which is of more direct relevance to this thread, is the ‘kitten-faced’ type and so is the exact same makers’ variant as yours; save that it does not have the top ‘Hindoostan’ scroll of course. For convenience here are the images of this badge again:


I am sure that many Forum members are familiar with the excellent work done by Julian (KLR) in establishing how the original length of the vertical shank (slider), which had first been used on badges for the Brodrick Cap (NP Forage Cap) when it was introduced in 1903, had been shortened in 1906. Back in 2010 this led me to speculate that my badges had possibly been worn in the Brodrick, however the difficulty with this suggestion is the fact that the top scroll-less Territorial Force badges only came in around 1908 by which time the Brodrick Cap had been officially replaced by the NP Field Service Cap; this coming in about 1906 and, apparently, resulting in the need to shorten the sliders on badges for this.

At the time Julian also pointed out here that whilst he was sure the length of sliders had been shortened in 1906 he could not confirm what the original length had been, and suspected it may have been much long than 45mm and could have actually been around 60mm. Although I do not collect helmet plate centres, which I understand were used as pugari badges, something Andy (2747andy) has already noted above, I was under the impression that these were in the region of 60mm in length?

On one of the 2010 threads Alan (AlanO) thought that the longer circa 45mm sliders may have been worn on the “standard peaked cap as used throughout WW1”, though I don’t think we ever settled this, and personally I’m still at a loss as to what kind of headgear my two Leicesters TF badges with their longer slider were worn on!! What I am pretty sure of, however, is that both my ‘kitten-faced’ TF badge above, and your regulars one, are pre-First World War. Although I haven’t been able to yet identify the actual manufacturer of these, I have quite a few of their badges and my personal belief is that those examples with the smaller narrowish oblong braze holes are the earlier ones.

Interestingly Dean (mooke07) has the ‘cousin’ of my longer slider ‘kitten-faced’ TF badge in one of his albums here, but his looks to have had its slider shortened!!! By the way, Dean, I’d be interested in seeing these “pictures of Leicestershire badges being worn in the pagri of the pith helmet during its time in India” that you mention please – maybe you could PM me about this? Finally, and in relation to this, there is the following snippet From the Green Tiger, Vol. III, No. 8, August 1907, p. 90:


I suppose what we really need is someone who has a Brodrick and a badge with a 45mm slider to see how things look together!? Anyroad, hope some of this is of interest?

Best regards

Martin

Martin,

Many thanks for your wonderfully detailed reply.

Evidently, the transitional period from longer to shorter sliders is still posing one or two areas slightly greyer in colour than I had realized. It's a fascinating topic in its own right, and so thank you all for your contributions and thought-provoking insights. I very much appreciate you all sharing your knowledge and expertise.

Regards to all.

JT

'Ticker' Riley 01-02-16 07:11 PM

Those grey areas with long slidered badges!
 
Hello JT

Glad to hear you found my comments, and the resume of the 2010 postings, of interest. As you say, quite a few grey areas when it comes to these longer slidered badges, especially where the Leicesters are concerned. I’m only sorry I can’t, at present, offer you any conclusive insights into things, but maybe, with the help of others here on the Forum, like Julian and his research, we will get to the bottom of things one day!!

Best regards

Martin

mooke07 02-02-16 10:23 AM

Good to have your detailed information thanks Martin,

i will look for the images of Leicester's Tigers being worn on the pith helmet.

I have a number of long slider 45-6mm Tiger badges for regular and TF battalions. I will post some at the weekend.

Thanks again for the interesting thread, cheers Dean.

'Ticker' Riley 02-02-16 07:22 PM

Longer slidered badges
 
Hi Dean

I was pleased that you too have found my posting of interest, and I’d certainly be grateful to see these pictures with tiger badges on the pith helmets. It would also be most useful to see your badges with longer sliders, if only for comparison with those already posted. Taking of comparisons, I see JT has instigated a new thread on a King’s Royal Rifle Corps’ badge with a longer slider – it will be interesting to follow how this progresses. Anyhow, until the weekend then …

Best regards

Martin


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