Artists Rifles - Change of Badge

I have read the various sources available to me on the Artists Rifles, but do not seem to be able to pin down exactly when the change from one pattern badge to the other occurred:

Artists.jpgArtists Rifles.jpg

Could someone clarify this for me, please?

I also believe that at one time, the badges were interchanged; is this correct?

With thanks,

Peter.

[Alan O]

I have seen at least one WW1 photo with both badge designs being worn by 2 soldiers.

Yes, this seems to be part of the problem, Alan. Very difficult (for me, at least ) to find any reliable source which indicates a time for the introduction of the second pattern.

As an aside; an off-forum discussion has raised conflicting views as to which of these two badges was the first of the two patterns.

I am of the mind that the 'Artists' is the first, and the 'Artists Rifles' is the second. However, reading through the descriptions in both vols. I and II of K&K, it could be construed the other way around.

Gaylor seems to think that 'Artists' was the first pattern... any thoughts?

With thanks,

Peter.

Just thought I'd shove this up for another go.

With thanks,

Peter.

[magpie]

Hi peter, a picture for you from Ray Westlakes book The Territorial Battalions but is the caption right ?, The imperial war museum had on display Wilfred Owen's big chin ARTISTS RIFLES badge he trained as an officer with them in 1916 ?.
Andy

[2LBH]

hi Gents,
according to Kipling & King, the white metal cap badge with the "Artists" scroll (KK 2426) was in use during WWII (and post-war on maroon beret) as it was sealed 14th April 1938. The one with the "Artists Rifles" scroll (KK1858) was thus pre-1938?? [exists in blackened-brass, gilding metal, white-metal (and in silver-plate and in Bronze for officiers)]. If any Artists' specialist or Guru Badge could confirm...

Originally Posted by magpie

Hi peter, a picture for you from Ray Westlakes book The Territorial Battalions but is the caption right ?, The imperial war museum had on display Wilfred Owen's big chin ARTISTS RIFLES badge he trained as an officer with them in 1916 ?.
Andy

Thanks for that, Andy. An intriguing photo, especially (as you say) given the photo of Wilfred Owen, depicting him wearing the 'Brucie' pattern

Originally Posted by 2LBH

hi Gents,
according to Kipling & King, the white metal cap badge with the "Artists" scroll (KK 2426) was in use during WWII (and post-war on maroon beret) as it was sealed 14th April 1938. The one with the "Artists Rifles" scroll (KK1858) was thus pre-1938?? [exists in blackened-brass, gilding metal, white-metal (and in silver-plate and in Bronze for officiers)]. If any Artists' specialist or Guru Badge could confirm...

2LBH,

Thanks for your reply - I think that Andy's photo above, goes a fair way to substantiating beyond reasonable doubt that the 'Artists' pattern was certainly in use around the Great War period; another reason why I am inclined more and more to subscribe to the opinion that both badges were in use and interchanged at various times.

However, even if the badges were interchanged, one or the other pattern must have been produced first.

Thanks again,

Peter.

[Keith Blakeman]

It's certainly confusing. I'm of the opinion that Artist Rifles is the correct badge from 1908 to WW1 and slightly later. Interesting to see Magpie's 1915 photo with the Artists badge being worn, I thought at first it may have been the old 20th Middlesex RV pattern but the scrolls on that one are pointed at the base and not curled up.

[2747andy]

This is a subject which has me Flummoxed too, I've several AR badges, mostly slidered with one on lugs (pre 1903?). However all the Artist examples I've seen have been slidered, those sliders being a shape more consistant with much later pattern badges? The AR badges also seem to have more age?

Andy

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

This is a subject which has me Flummoxed too, I've several AR badges, mostly slidered with one on lugs (pre 1903?). However all the Artist examples I've seen have been slidered, those sliders being a shape more consistant with much later pattern badges? The AR badges also seem to have more age?

Andy

Andy

The Pre-1903 design would be for the 20th Middlesex RV. Attached to show differences in scroll. I wonder if the Artists Rifles scroll badge was unpopular and they reverted to one similar to their old pattern?

Originally Posted by Keith Blakeman

Andy

The Pre-1903 design would be for the 20th Middlesex RV. Attached to show differences in scroll. I wonder if the Artists Rifles scroll badge was unpopular and they reverted to one similar to their old pattern?

Certainly a sound theory, Keith, though I suppose the opposite could also apply... if the first badge design for 28th was the 'Artists' pattern, it may have been felt that it was too similar to the old 20ths' badge, and that perhaps a newer. less similar pattern was needed.

Just a thought.

Peter

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by Keith Blakeman

Andy

The Pre-1903 design would be for the 20th Middlesex RV. Attached to show differences in scroll. I wonder if the Artists Rifles scroll badge was unpopular and they reverted to one similar to their old pattern?

Perhaps adopted by one of the many companies raised?

In September 1880, the corps became the 20th Middlesex (Artists) Rifle Volunteer Corps, with headquarters at Duke's Road, off Euston Road, London (now the home of The Place, the Contemporary Dance Trust). It formed the 7th Volunteer Battalion of the Rifle Brigade from 1881 until 1891 and the 6th Volunteer Battalion from 1892 to 1908. During this period, the Artists Rifles fought in the Boer Wars as part of the City Imperial Volunteers.[2] Following the formation of the Territorial Force, the Artists Rifles was one of twenty-eight volunteer battalions in the London and Middlesex areas that combined to form the new London Regiment. It became the 28th (County of London) Battalion of the London Regiment on 1 April 1908.[2]

[edit] 20th century

The Artists Rifles was a popular unit for volunteers. It had been increased to twelve companies in 1900 and was formed into three sub-battalions in 1914

[Wmr-RHB]

May I ask a remote related question?

One of the titles 2747andy mentions. is "20th Middlesex (Artists) Rifle Volunteer Corps".
This reminds me of something I am asking myself allready for some time about the "Rifle Volunteer Corps" in general (not particularly about the Artists). IIRC I have also seen the wording "Volunteer Rifle Corps". Are they different, are they pointing to the same type of units, is one of them improper used? Please, enlighten me.

Originally Posted by Keith Blakeman

Andy

The Pre-1903 design would be for the 20th Middlesex RV. Attached to show differences in scroll. I wonder if the Artists Rifles scroll badge was unpopular and they reverted to one similar to their old pattern?

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Perhaps adopted by one of the many companies raise?

In September 1880, the corps became the 20th Middlesex (Artists) Rifle Volunteer Corps, with headquarters at Duke's Road, off Euston Road, London (now the home of The Place, the Contemporary Dance Trust). It formed the 7th Volunteer Battalion of the Rifle Brigade from 1881 until 1891 and the 6th Volunteer Battalion from 1892 to 1908. During this period, the Artists Rifles fought in the Boer Wars as part of the City Imperial Volunteers.[2] Following the formation of the Territorial Force, the Artists Rifles was one of twenty-eight volunteer battalions in the London and Middlesex areas that combined to form the new London Regiment. It became the 28th (County of London) Battalion of the London Regiment on 1 April 1908.[2]

[edit] 20th century

The Artists Rifles was a popular unit for volunteers. It had been increased to twelve companies in 1900 and was formed into three sub-battalions in 1914

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...9&postcount=26



Here is a page from 'Badges of Volunteer Infantry Battalions 1883-1899' held at the National Archives.

Sketches were drawn up by contactors to the regiment's requirements, whereafter they were submitted by a unit's C.O. to the Adjutant General's Office, for approval.

This particular design was approved on 4th April 1895, which appears to confirm that the 'ARTISTS' pattern was in use long before the formation of the TF, and the Great War period.

Although this does not answer my original question in the opening post, it would seem likely that 'ARTISTS' was the first pattern.

Your thoughts welcome

20th Mx Artists RV.jpg

Peter

[orasot]

Nice bit of work Peter, the sketch is a work of art on it's own, thanks for showing it mate,
Wilf.