Artists Rifles

[dobw]

Well, gentlemen, would you give a look at my small group of Artists Rifles badges and let me know your opinions? As always, my primary concern is originality, but I'm also somewhat mystified by the chronology of these badges. This is a favorite regiment of mine, but I can't seem to make sense of which style of badge was worn when...

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by dobw

Well, gentlemen, would you give a look at my small group of Artists Rifles badges and let me know your opinions? As always, my primary concern is originality, but I'm also somewhat mystified by the chronology of these badges. This is a favorite regiment of mine, but I can't seem to make sense of which style of badge was worn when...

Your badge bearing the 'ARTISTS' scroll (white-metal, top centre) is fashioned after the 20th Middlesex Rifle Volunteers design of badge. Drawings from 'Badges of Volunteer Infantry Battalions 1883-1899' held at the National Archives, confirms that this pattern was approved on 4th April 1895, and is likely therefore to have preceded the 'ARTISTS RIFLES' version (your badges far-left and far-right), though this on its own is not of course conclusive proof.

Pinning down a specific juncture at which one pattern superseded the other is not something I am able at present to clarify, though perhaps other members might be able to.

Even so, I have on many occasions seen images dating from the Great War period wherein both types of badge can be seen in situ. My opinion from the evidence I have seen to date is that the 'ARTISTS' version is the first pattern, the 'ARTISTS RIFLES', the second.

I am sorry that I am unable to provide a photo showing both patterns being worn at the same time, though the first portrait below dates from 1917, and the group photo clearly shows the cloth 'ARTISTS' shoulder title being worn... perhaps forum member Drew, can pin down a date for the wearing of the cloth badge.

Regards,

JT

[dobw]

Thanks JT! Your badges and photos are amazing! Very helpful, terrific information, but now I'm wondering if any of my badges are genuine, as they seem to differ significantly from yours. What do you think?

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by dobw

Thanks JT! Your badges and photos are amazing! Very helpful, terrific information, but now I'm wondering if any of my badges are genuine, as they seem to differ significantly from yours. What do you think?

Dob,

A badge much debated here on the forum over the years; its variants the subject of many a thread.

There are schools of thought which resist the so-called 'Brucie' variant (Minerva with distended chin, as per your example viewer's right), though there is a photo in existence of Wilfred Owen with this version in his cap.

I am aware that some members like to use as a point of reference, the heads of the serpents as a means by which to gauge authenticity... 'cartoon worms' is one expression I have seen used in describing the less kosher examples.

It can be a tricky badge to appraise; some evidently snide, whereas others can be harder to evaluate. A trawl through old threads might be a good way for you to assess your badges, though I am sure the more knowledgeable members will be happy to offer up opinion.

Cheers,

JT

[JerryBB]

The white metal artists rifles at bottom right is one that usually gets the thumbs down being the big chinned type.

Harder to say on the other two, perhaps posting each badge individually would help, well me at least, to comment.

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror

Your badge bearing the 'ARTISTS' scroll (white-metal, top centre) is fashioned after the 20th Middlesex Rifle Volunteers design of badge. Drawings from 'Badges of Volunteer Infantry Battalions 1883-1899' held at the National Archives, confirms that this pattern was approved on 4th April 1895, and is likely therefore to have preceded the 'ARTISTS RIFLES' version (your badges far-left and far-right), though this on its own is not of course conclusive proof.

Pinning down a specific juncture at which one pattern superseded the other is not something I am able at present to clarify, though perhaps other members might be able to.

Even so, I have on many occasions seen images dating from the Great War period wherein both types of badge can be seen in situ. My opinion from the evidence I have seen to date is that the 'ARTISTS' version is the first pattern, the 'ARTISTS RIFLES', the second.

I am sorry that I am unable to provide a photo showing both patterns being worn at the same time, though the first portrait below dates from 1917, and the group photo clearly shows the cloth 'ARTISTS' shoulder title being worn... perhaps forum member Drew, can pin down a date for the wearing of the cloth badge.

Regards,

JT

[

Great photos. I note that the 'Artists' badge is worn by an officer and the 'Artists Rifles' by ORs so perhaps not a straight forward transition.
I have seen lots of WW1 pictures with ORs with the 'Artist's Rifles' scroll but as yet I have been unable to date the ORs short scroll Artists badge in w/m other than the s/p date of 1938 (see link below) I did wonder if the change in role to Offr Trg saw the adoption of the new ORs badge copying the officer bronze pattern shown in your photo?

More here: http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=19363

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Great photos. I note that the 'Artists' badge is worn by an officer and the 'Artists Rifles' by ORs so perhaps not a straight forward transition.
I have seen lots of WW1 pictures with ORs with the 'Artist's Rifles' scroll but as yet I have been unable to date the ORs short scroll Artists badge in w/m other than the s/p date of 1938 (see link below) I did wonder if the change in role to Offr Trg saw the adoption of the new ORs badge copying the officer bronze pattern shown in your photo?

More here: http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=19363

Only a few weeks ago, I came across a couple of postcards at a militaria fair, both of which depicted group shots of O/Rs of the 28th Londons, with the two patterns of cap badge being worn side-by-side. A great record for any aficionado of the regiment, but the asking price of thirty-two smackeroos the pair, ensured my new-found acquaintance with the seller would never ripen into a lasting friendship. Some toils are more onerous than their fruits are felicitous.

JT

[Alan O]

Very interesting. The combination of OR badges could be down to a few things. As with all things TF the records are difficult to find.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Very interesting. The combination of OR badges could be down to a few things. As with all things TF the records are difficult to find.

Agreed, and thinking back now, I vaguely recall one of the photos showing drummers(?)... Wilf may be able to cast a flicker of light across this, having been present at the time.

JT

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Great photos. I note that the 'Artists' badge is worn by an officer and the 'Artists Rifles' by ORs so perhaps not a straight forward transition.
I have seen lots of WW1 pictures with ORs with the 'Artist's Rifles' scroll but as yet I have been unable to date the ORs short scroll Artists badge in w/m other than the s/p date of 1938 (see link below) I did wonder if the change in role to Offr Trg saw the adoption of the new ORs badge copying the officer bronze pattern shown in your photo?

Alan,

Did you note also the 'ARTISTS RIFLES' badge worn by the officer in the fourth photo of post #2? Nice to see the TF 'T' collar badges on display too...



And another...



Overseas service chevrons (and medal ribbons) here too, dating this image to pre-1922, when the wearing when in uniform of chevrons denoting service overseas (together with silver war badges, wound stripes) was discontinued under Army Order 434 of that year.



JT

[wardog]

Hello Dob. I would be happy with your left of picture badge. Regards, Paul.

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror

Alan,

Did you note also the 'ARTISTS RIFLES' badge worn by the officer in the fourth photo of post #2? Nice to see the TF 'T' collar badges on display too...



And another...



Overseas service chevrons (and medal ribbons) here too, dating this image to pre-1922, when the wearing when in uniform of chevrons denoting service overseas (together with silver war badges, wound stripes) was discontinued under Army Order 434 of that year.



JT

I did note that. presumably the absence of Squeak and Wilfred ribbons make it pre 1919?

[Voltigeur]

Originally Posted by Alan O

I did note that. presumably the absence of Squeak and Wilfred ribbons make it pre 1919?

Hello,just to add another photo,,this one from the IWM files, shows more clearly an officer wearing the collar badges with a 'T'.
Jo
© IWM (HU 113757) Lieutenant Roy C. Frederick Besch MC 2428.