Soo Rifles again - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

boots and saddles · #1 31-12-09, 04:27 PM

Is this just another of the repro's mentioned here on the forum or is it a good one, quite an enhanceing write up. http://cgi.ebay.ca/The-Soo-Rifles-51...item3efb90f5dd

Bill A · #2 31-12-09, 05:14 PM

REPRO. I have emailed this vendor about the authenticity of the badge and he says he "will look into it". It is "not documented in his large reference library".

Doug N · #3 31-12-09, 05:43 PM

The vendor describes it as a badge "you will not soon see again, if ever..." I wish that was true.

Wyn vdSchee · #4 31-12-09, 10:14 PM

The vendor is also flogging more fantasy cloth badges of the Canadian SAS.
Wyn

Bill A · #5 31-12-09, 10:42 PM

Here is an example of a good one from my collection.

militarycross · #6 03-01-10, 05:40 PM

This badge has been a source of great conversation over the years.

I have both the lugged and the slider versions, and three different sets of collars and an unusual collar that I will photograph and post just for information.

I was told that the lugged version was the 1913 edition when Penhorwood organized the unit. My memory says that these guys became part of the 238 Forestry Corps that he took to log Windsor Great Park. I would need to go back and check this for certain.

Following the Great War, the Soo Rifles [less the number] used the same badge but that it was made with a slider and in brass. This is how it was explained to me by the late curator of the 49th RCA Museum. Maybe someone else has a different story on this, and I sure would like to know it.

Now, that ebay citation reads:

"In 1913, the 51st Regiment known as the Soo Rifles was formed. In October 1914, one company, 125 all ranks, under Captain J. Johnston went to England with the 2nd Canadian Infantry Battalion."

In fact, 127 men left on the 20th of August, 1914, to join up, were under the command of Capt. Jack Johnston. One of the men leaving was William Merrified who later was awarded the VC for a little dust-up. Oddly enough, in the newspaper that day, it was noted that they were going to join "the Thin Red Line" which I believe is a reference to the Argyl & Sutherlands who captured the guns from which the medal is made. [I know I will corrected if memory is slipping on this.]

I thought I would attach a clipping I just received from a great nephew of one of the men who went with this gang, and regrettably, the soldier watched his twin brother killed 26APR16 when the 2nd caught it.

So, Wyn or Bill, I would appreciate your knowledge on the 51st Badge.

cheers,

phil

Bill A · #7 03-01-10, 06:48 PM

Hello Phil, A couple of questions come to mind. Did the Soo Rifles have a stock of badges left after the war, or did they need to acquire more? With the militia reorganization of 1920, the number was to be dropped from the design. So, if they did order badges, to be officially approved they would have dropped the number. Many post FWW militia badges were made in the UK, and had sliders. However, the Soo Rifles badge, as a rifles regiment, should be found with a darkened finish. Natural brass was not the accepted finish for rifles regiments.
The unit was re-designated the Sault Ste Marie Regiment in 1923, and new badges were acquired, but how quickly? Did the SSMR wear the Soo Rifles badges, and for how long?

The dies for the 51st Soo Rifles were apparently sold at some point in the 1980's or 1990's. That resulted in the flood of brass finished slider badges that are appearing on the market. At this point in time, any 51st Soo badge with a slider, is in my opinion suspect. I would certainly like to see some evidence to the contrary. (Curators have been known to make mistakes.)

Of note, one my 51st Soo badges is tang back (officer's silver), and the other is lugged.

militarycross · #8 03-01-10, 07:18 PM

I think a trip to the Museum is in order for me shortly, to see what is there to answer these questions, which are germain to any realistic conversation. There may be some photo evidence to go along with the answers.

I have one of the restrikes, imaged below, that I bought for maybe ten buck or so from a chap in Saskatoon along with some OPP insignia 8-10 years ago. I knew it was not a period piece, but wanted it to compare. Your info on the die sale & market flood is useful.

Very good point on the colouration of the rifles badge. That point makes me think of the 97th Algonquin's HP that I have which is darkened. I think it is the one that Brooker IDs as the Senior NCO crossbelt plate, as it is neither of the images in Mazeas pre-14 book.

I would appreciate a view of your officer's badge. I don't think we have an image of it at the armoury or museum.

cheers,
phil

Bill A · #9 04-01-10, 02:39 AM

Caution. Have a look at this copy. Note that it appears the slider has been removed and lugs added. http://cgi.ebay.com/Canadain-51-Soo-...item4cece7009f

militarycross · #10 04-01-10, 10:02 AM

Different guy perhaps, but very similar badge other than this noted modification. Lugs look too long.

cheers,
phil

militarycross · #11 06-01-10, 06:34 PM

This is a piece I have had for some years that is quite odd. I got it from Tresham when he had his shop in Ottawa so that will give a reference point to when it came to me. I have never seen any reference points to it at all in written or photographic material. If someone knows a story of this, I would appreciate hearing it.

I would have put up the collar images, but I have too much glare from the glass so will do that the next time I open the case up.

cheers,
phil

LLWill · #12 06-01-10, 07:02 PM

You are correct in calling it"odd"!! If anything it looks like something for a plaque or presentation or???. If it was the badge it would have "51" on it, plus a scroll with CANADA on it. The amount of the badge(??) showing should have the "51" on it - ?? This is not even commenting on the finish, number of feathers in the bonnet . . .

Larry

militarycross · #13 06-01-10, 07:09 PM

Indeed, Larry, an unusual piece.

As I remember, it is lugged and that was what was even more puzzling. I will dig it out of the case at some point in the future and put a ruler beside it for reference purposes. If you have the cap brass, it is essentially the same size.

The only thing that has ever come to my mind about it was whether or not it was the post FWW Soo Rifles collar, but you would think the museum or the armoury museum would have one or a copy. And why would you change what was a nice looking collar anyway?

cheers,
phil

Bill A · #14 07-01-10, 01:38 PM

Here is an image of the reverse of my 51st Soo Rifles cap badges. The badge on the left is an other ranks with a darkened finish, and the badge on the right is an officer's sterling silver badge. The badge had tang back fasteners that were folded over to make a loop and soldered together. (Sorry about the flash reflection, but that was the best image I could get to show the hallmark.)

militarycross · #15 08-01-10, 12:05 AM

This is neat, Bill. The ORs looks like it is Gaunt and I can't quite make out the Officers. I would appreciate seeing the face of the officer's badge.

I will get the images up of my collars, and the back of the oddity in the near future. Have got a little too much to do just now to spare the time. This is an interesting conversation.

cheers,
phil