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  #1  
Old 27-10-07, 02:40 PM
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Default Unidentified hackle

I wonder if anyone could tell me which unit wore ( or wears ) the red over blue hackle illustrated ?
P.B.
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Old 27-10-07, 09:02 PM
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Although Hackles are still worn by Fusilier Regiments, RTR, Royal Signals and some others, currently no British unit wears /wore these colours in a hackle.

The Royal Warwickshire fusiliers briefly had Orange over Blue when the RW regiment where given Fusilier status but FM Montgomery suggested they be reversed and of course they were.

Red over blue could be a cazoo band or even an LOL Band from Ulster.
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Old 28-10-07, 08:40 AM
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Default Hackles

Thanks for your response, the red over blue hackle came with a chromed Liverpool Irish badge and was said to be a pipers badge/hackle but the Liverool Irish wore a blue over red hackle as in the attached photo and I am also a bit dubious about the chromed badge beinga pipers but I may be wrong.
Any ideas about the other hackle illustrated.It is red over green ,but the colours might not be too clear on the photo.
P.B.
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  #4  
Old 28-10-07, 11:27 AM
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Default Hackles

Don,t forget the various non military bands who wear uniforms, some times including hackles and also the various regiments of the present Indian continent. All the best Sean.
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  #5  
Old 28-10-07, 07:28 PM
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Fusilier Regiments:

In the British Army, there is a single regiment of fusiliers, plus a battalion of a large regiment:
Royal Regiment of Fusiliers: Red over white
Royal Highland Fusiliers (a battalion of the Royal Regiment of Scotland): White

There were several other fusilier regiments which have been amalgamated and no longer exist. Their colours were as follows:
Lancashire Fusiliers: Primrose yellow
Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment): White
Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers: Grey
Royal Irish Fusiliers: Green
Royal Northumberland Fusiliers: Red over white
Royal Scots Fusiliers: White
Royal Warwickshire Fusiliers: Blue over red
Royal Welch Fusiliers: White
The fictional regiment featured in the series Soldier Soldier is also a fusilier regiment:
King's Own Fusiliers: Blue over white

Non-Fusilier Regiments:

Non-fusilier regiments which wear the hackle are:
Irish Guards (pipers on caubeen only): St Patrick's blue
Liverpool Scottish (now a platoon of A (King's) Company, King's and Cheshire Regiment): Royal blue
London Irish Rifles (now D (London Irish Rifles) Company, London Regiment): St Patrick's blue
Royal Irish Regiment (as the direct descendent of two regiments of fusiliers): Green
Royal Scots Dragoon Guards (pipers on feather bonnet only): White
Royal Welsh (Other Ranks only): White
Scots Guards (pipers on feather bonnet only): Blue over red
Royal Tank Regiment (Band and Astrakhan Beret) Green, Red, Brown in a row.


White hackle, as worn by the Royal Highland Fusiliers Battalion of the Royal Regiment of Scotland
Following the amalgamtion of the regiments of the Scottish Division to form The Royal Regiment of Scotland on 28 March 2006, the following hackles are being worn by the regiment's constituent battalions:
Royal Scots Borderers (1 SCOTS): Black
Royal Highland Fusiliers (2 SCOTS): White
Black Watch (3 SCOTS): Red
The Highlanders (4 SCOTS): Blue
Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders (5 SCOTS): Green
Whilst the white hackle of 2 SCOTS, red hackle of 3 SCOTS and blue hackle of 4 SCOTS have a known ancestry, the origin of 1 SCOTS black hackle and 5 SCOTS green hackle are not clear and have no apparent precedent. It may be that the black hackle of 1 SCOTS simulates the black-cock tail feathers originally worn in the 1904 pattern Kilmarnock Bonnet and latterly in the regimental Glengarry Cap by the Royal Scots and King's Own Scottish Borderers, who merged in August 2006 to form 1 SCOTS. Alternatively, it may be a sympathetic gesture to a former Lowland regiment, the Cameronians (Scottish Rifles), disbanded in 1968, who wore a black hackle in their rifle green dress Balmoral. The adoption of the green hackle now being worn by the Argylls battalion (5 SCOTS) is no doubt a continuation of that regiment's association with the colour green, most prominent in the hue of their regimental kilts and stripes on their regimental association ties. (It is, however, worthy of note that in the 19th Century, all line regiments of the British Army used to designate their "light company" with a green hackle.)[1] The Regimental Band of the Royal Regiment of Scotland does not wear the hackle.
Former non-fusilier regiments, now amalgamated, which also wore the hackle were:
Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders (feather bonnet only): White
Black Watch: Red
The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles): Black
Gordon Highlanders (feather bonnet only): White
The Highlanders (Seaforth, Gordons and Camerons): Royal blue
Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders: Royal blue
Queen's Own Highlanders: Royal blue
Queen's Royal Irish Hussars (pipers on caubeen only): White over red
Royal Irish Rangers: Green
Royal Corps of Transport (pipers on feather bonnet only): Red over white over blue
Royal Ulster Rifles: Black
Seaforth Highlanders (feather bonnet only): White

Canadian Army:



Hackle as worn by the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders of Canada and the Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa. Hackles worn by the QOCH in the Second World War were smaller and less voluminous; peacetime hackles adopted post-war were fuller as illustrated here.
There are also several fusilier regiments in the Canadian Army which wear the hackle (the French-speaking fusilier regiments do not appear to do so):
Princess Louise Fusiliers: French grey
Royal Highland Fusiliers of Canada: White
Scottish-influenced non-fusilier regiments which wear the hackle include:
Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders of Canada (drummers on feather bonnet only): White
Black Watch of Canada: Red
Calgary Highlanders (drummers on feather bonnet only): White [2]
Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa: Royal blue
Canadian Scottish Regiment (drummers on feather bonnet only): White
Essex and Kent Scottish Regiment (feather bonnet only): White
Lorne Scots: Primrose yellow
Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders of Canada: Royal blue (except pipers in full dress, who wear an eagle feather instead).[3]
Seaforth Highlanders of Canada (drummers on feather bonnet only): White
Irish-influenced non-fusilier regiments which wear the hackle (on the caubeen) include:
2nd Battalion, Irish Regiment of Canada: Green (light blue for senior NCOs and officers)

Indian Army:

In the Indian Army, a few selected infantry regiments wear the hackle:
Brigade of the Guards: Red over yellow
The Grenadiers: White
Kumaon Regiment: Green
Mahar Regiment: Dull cherry
Maratha Light Infantry: Red over green
Naga Regiment: Orange
Rajput Regiment: Maroon over red

Malaysian Army:

Royal Ranger Regiment: Black
Royal Military College: Red (to be worn on Annual Passing Out parade only)

Pakistan Army:

The Punjab Regiment: Green
9th Battalion, Azad Kashmir Regiment: Red (commemorates the action in the Leepa Valley, Kashmir in 1972)

South African Army:

Scottish- and Irish-influenced regiments which wear the hackle include:
South African Irish Regiment: Green
Transvaal Scottish Regiment: Red
Witwatersrand Rifles: Black

Regards Mike

Last edited by tynesideirish; 28-10-07 at 07:53 PM.
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  #6  
Old 28-10-07, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8thfoot View Post
Thanks for your response, the red over blue hackle came with a chromed Liverpool Irish badge and was said to be a pipers badge/hackle but the Liverool Irish wore a blue over red hackle as in the attached photo and I am also a bit dubious about the chromed badge beinga pipers but I may be wrong.
Any ideas about the other hackle illustrated.It is red over green ,but the colours might not be too clear on the photo.
P.B.
It appears the Liverpool Irish Hackle is an amalgamation to increase price or rarity.

Indian, Maratha Light Infantry: Red over green
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  #7  
Old 28-10-07, 08:15 PM
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Whilst on the topic of Hackles:
Welsh reservists first to wear new regimental headdress on operations
13 Mar 06
Reservists from the newly formed Infantry Regiment, the 3rd Battalion The Royal Welsh, serving in Basrah, southern Iraq are the first soldiers to wear their new hackles and cap badges in an operational theatre.


The soldiers of 3rd Battalion The Royal Welsh wearing their new headdress and hackles at Basrah Air Station, southern Iraq. From left; Front row (kneeling) Private Paul Davies, Private Simon Crewe, Private Daniel Wall, Private Neil Eddington, Private Daniel Hodgson. Back row (standing), Private Ronald Evans, Corporal Richard Gilgar, Private Mark O'Sullivan. [Picture: LA(Phot) Dave Griffiths, Press Information Centre, Basrah.]
The new Regiment - formed from the seven battalions of the Royal Welch Fusiliers, the Royal Regiment of Wales and the Royal Welsh Regiment - has brought together the infantry in Wales.

As the eight soldiers from the new 3rd Battalion were unable to attend the drumhead service held on 1 March 2006 to inaugurate the new Regiment at St Davidís Hall, Cardiff, Lieutenant Colonel Simon Leader, the Commanding Officer of their Regiment, presented them with their hackles during a brief visit to see the soldiers at Basrah.

The soldiers, serving a six-month tour in Iraq, are all attached to Cambrai Company, based at Basrah Air Station. Their role involves providing force protection to the Headquarters of the Multi National Division (South East). The work includes carrying out patrols across southern Iraq in support of the Multi National Forces mission.

Private Simon Crewe, 25, from Swansea, is a university student in civilian life. He said of the new Regiment:

"I feel proud and honoured to wear our new cap badge. And to wear the hackle whilst we are serving on an operational tour is an added bonus as we are out here representing our Regiment.

"Working out here in Iraq means that I am doing the job I have trained for and am using the skills I have acquired during my time during the two years I have been a member of the Territorial Army. I feel that I am doing an important job Ė representing Britain and working to help the Iraqi people."

The new dress of The Royal Welsh is a three feather badge on a khaki beret with green edging and a hackle. The new stable belt is blue over green with a red divide and a leather buckle.

The Royal Welsh Regiment was formerly the Territorial Army Infantry Regiment for Wales. The Regiment was formed in 1999 from the 3rd Battalion the Royal Welch Fusiliers and 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Wales. It has two Royal Welsh Fusiliers and two Royal Regiment of Wales Companies based in Wrexham and Colwyn Bay and Swansea and Pontypridd respectively, with its Regimental Headquarters in Cardiff. In its short existence the Royal Welsh Regiment gained a strong reputation amongst the public in Wales and deployed many soldiers on operations.

To celebrate St Davidís Day, soldiers wore leeks in their lapels on patrols and around Basrah Air Station, sparking much interest amongst the local people.

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  #8  
Old 11-11-07, 06:31 PM
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Peter

I was going through some notes I made from a visit to Kew last month and spotted something that made me think of this thread.

In WO32/4709 which deals with the badges and dress of the 8th Irish Battalion on re-formation before WW2 application mas made by the regiment for the following hackles

Red over Blue for Officers & WOs.
Red over Green for O/Ranks.

both these requests were refused. Unfortunatley it was late in the day and I did not take especially accurate notes of this file but I don't recall any reference to a precident or reason for these particular colours or indeed I do not recall any reference to the red over blue being worn un-officially prior to the formal request.

But maybe it provides a little bit of a lead for you in trying to better understand this piece.

John
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  #9  
Old 12-11-07, 06:10 PM
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Default Liverpool Irish hackles

John,
Thank you for that, Julian B sent me some details a short time ago of WO 32/
13024 dated 1953 when in a letter to the Hon Col it was stated that a red and blue hackle had been approved for wear by all ranks............it was not War Office policy to approve two coloured hackles for wear by one regiment.

However in the MHS Bulletin of May 1985 there is a list of authorised hackles and it is noted that Warrant officers wore red and blue hackles ( approved 27/6/53 ) and that all other ranks,other than W.O.s wore red and green hackles(worn since 1939 but no date of approval given)

I am sure that on being reformed in 1939 all ranks wore a green hackle.( letter from C.O. of 208 (3rd West Lancs ) Light Air Defence Battery R.A.(T) dated 27th April 1977- but not necessarily correct )

In Badge Backings and Special Embellishments of the British Army it is stated that a red over green hackle was worn initially which changed to red over blue ( must be an error surely) when the unit became Royal Artillery.

I have an article on pipers of the Liverpool Irish which has been accepted for publication by the M.H.S.. If would be happy to E mail you a copy if you are interested

Peter
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Old 12-11-07, 07:45 PM
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Peter

Yes thank you I would love to see a copy of your paper, I shall PM you with my e-mail address .

The question of hackles for the battalion is cartainly hazy. Even though the WO refused the request for the red over blue and red over green hackles in 1938/39 I wonder were they ever worn unofficially? Unfortunately I have no other primary references on the subject but I am interested in all of the Irish units so I will make a point of looking out for any information that would clarify the subject.

John
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Old 24-11-07, 02:07 AM
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In Gaylor's badge book,in the pipers chapter, he states that the Liverpool Irish pipers wore a w/m copy of the old Irish Rifles Volunteers badge for a short time after 1957.This he says was worn with a two-coloured hackle,red above & blue below.

Is this any help here?

Cheers !
Steve
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  #12  
Old 24-11-07, 05:47 PM
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Default Liverpool Irish hackles

Steve,
I did in fact know that,but thank you very much for your input

Regards

Peter
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  #13  
Old 10-01-08, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8thfoot View Post
I wonder if anyone could tell me which unit wore ( or wears ) the red over blue hackle illustrated ?
P.B.
As an instructor at the School of Infantry I was once told by a TA soldier that the TA Liverpool Scottish company/battery had it's own pipers who wore a red over blue hackle.
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Old 10-01-08, 04:55 PM
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Default Hackle

Toby,
I am sorry but I think your informant was wrong.The only hackle worn in recent years by the Liverpool Scottish ( including pipers ) would be the blue hackle as worn by the Camerons.

Could it ( depending on when we are talking about) have been the Liverpool Irish and not the Scottish ?

Regards

P.B.
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  #15  
Old 11-01-08, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8thfoot View Post
Toby,
I am sorry but I think your informant was wrong.The only hackle worn in recent years by the Liverpool Scottish ( including pipers ) would be the blue hackle as worn by the Camerons.

Could it ( depending on when we are talking about) have been the Liverpool Irish and not the Scottish ?

Regards

P.B.
It could well have been Liverpool Irish, but I seem to recall the quote of a connection with the original 'King's' Liverpool Scottish as the provenance of the colours, as there was pride that this predated the association with the Cameron Highlanders, I remember that some tartan they used (but not on headress) was associated with that time too. The period was early 1980s so perhaps it was Liverpool Irish after all.
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