Leeds Pals?

[badjez]

Submitted for your assessment please.

This appears to be a 15th (Leeds) Bn, PoW Own (West Yorks Regt) cap badge, but could it also have been used by Leeds Corporation? The badge is gilding metal and shows signs of a slider having been cut off and the brooch fitting added. When compared with known re-strikes it looks favourable apart from not having been voided between the legs of the owl on the shield. This may not matter though as the specimen pictured in K&K (Fig 1147) does not appear to have been fretted either. On the other hand, the Owl's crowns are larger in the K&K figure.

Pictures were taken using flash and natural light. The latter gives a better impression of the colour and toning on the badge.

It was bought for the price of a re-strike so I won't be offended by any comments!
Stephen.

[oc14]

I have never knowingly encountered an original Leeds Pals ORs cap badge on anything other than lugs (i.e i've never seen a guaranteed 100% original one on a slider) - I did work alongside Laurie Milner on his book "Leeds Pals" so had plenty of opportunity in handling original Leeds Pals items (including cap badges).

No scientific proof, just an opinion based on personal experience

OC14

[KLR]

I don't know anything about these badges either but I can tell you that it does not appear in the ACD lists. In fact the only Pals badge that does appear - as in produced under the auspices of the WO - is the Liverpool Pals. This was sealed in 1915 with lugs, in 1917 is was resealed with a slider. In fact most 1st WW badges were sealed with sliders.
But as OC says, this is not scientific proof !

[Deejayuu]

Hi Stephen,
what you have here is a Leeds corporation badge probably a Tramways badge. It uses the Leeds coats of arms as a basis for the badge but with significant differances from the pals badge. I have attached a scan of 6 badges with the Leeds coats of arms to illustrate the areas for identification. The top 3 are genuine Leeds Pals badges the bottom three are most definately not.
Top left- Other ranks blackened gilt for use in Egypt
Top Middle- Officers silver. presented by the Lord Mayor on the town hall steps to the first 22 officers only
Top right- Other ranks first issue gilt
Bottom left- Leeds corporation badge
Bottom Middle- Repro Leeds Pals on slider, bronzed
Bottom right- Repro Leeds pals bronze.

Up until a few weeks ago i believed that all the badges in the scan were genuine Pals badges except the corporation badge. I have since been given a master class in spotting the good from the bad for which i am indebted to a fellow B&CMDF member for educating me.
If you look closely at the three top genuine badges you will see significant differances from the bottom three. The key points are as follows.

1/ they were never issued on sliders. I purchased a bronzed badge on a slider from a reputable dealer having being convinced that a slidered badge was issued but only to officers and only to the first contingent of officers that went to Egypt. I now beleive that this never happened.
2/ The hung lamb is different. Repros have less healthy lambs, almost starved in comparison with a genuine lamb, the way the head hangs is also quite different.
3/ the coronets. Compare the corporation badge coronet with the others and it is much smaller.
4/ the owls (or budgies as they are known locally) are differant on the corporation badge compared to the pals badge
5/ definition. The corporation badge is a poorer quality strike and is much less well defined.
6/ script. the corporation scrolls have larger text on them than pals badges
7/ legs. this one caught me out to my expense. The legs on the owls holding the shield are much shorter and fuller on the genuine badges compared with the repros.
I hope this helps. Up until a few weeks ago i thought i had 5 genuine Leeds Pals badge and 2 corporation badges. I now know i only have 3 genuine Leeds Pals. Saving grace is that the officers silver is one of only 22 officially issued!

Keep smiling. Dave

[badjez]

Julian & Dave,
Thanks for your postings. Very useful information even if it only confirms I've bought a pup. I must learn to stick to buying what I know about!

Stephen.

[Sonofacqms]

Back in the 1960's, I bought a Corporation badge priced 17/6 which was a lot of money in those days. I bought it from a long dead respected badge enthusiast who may have thought it was a real Leeds Pals badge. Far more knowledge about badges is available now than back in those days. Well done Dave for showing a very informative piece of badge history.

Hi Dave
Did you show me that Leeds Pals officers badge when I came round to look at your fine collection? Or is it a recent addition?
Best regards
Marcus

[Deejayuu]

Hi Marcus,
yes the badge was in the collection but i was not aware of its significance at the time. I knew that only the first officers of the 15th bn were issued with a solid silver badge presented by the lord mayor on the town hall steps but i was under the impression that it was a differant style badge. There is out there a private purchase badge which is cast silver, flat backed and more `compact` for a better word. I thought this was the badge refered to as being the Lord Mayor issue but i have been advise differerntly be someone who knows far more than i.
Hope you are keeping well, must meet up again.

Cheers, Dave

[Neil Pearce]

Hi Guys

Bought this a while ago from a reputable source, but am not sure about it. Can't put my finger on it, but it's just thin, new looking and a little sharp.

Comments and thoughts would be much appreciated!

[Alan O]

Yes it is a good one but has it been chemically cleaned. All the small 'tells' in the design are right.

Alan

The badge does look a little un-worn to me (not to be confused with having been cleaned) from the pictures and not very cleanly struck when looking at the rear of the shield (the 3 examples I have all have very clean edges) but as its come from a reputable source (who has been able to get hands on it) and having short legs and a lovely fat lamb etc it could be genuine as I hope it is.

Marcus

[Neil Pearce]

Thanks for the encouraging thoughts guys. Much appreciated.

[Phil Coventry]

I have just come across this leeds pals cap badge. after reading some of the other posts on this battalion, i am know unsure if this is actually the genuine article. It is a slidered badge with Lambourne and company, Birmingham stampings on.

I hope some of you collectors with more knowledge on this subject than me, can help me out.

Thanks awfully,

Phil

[wardog]

Hello Phil. Badge is wrong for the usual reasons inc. Skiny Ram, long-legged owls, owl's heads inclined inwards. Think its also a known fake Lambourne mark, the Co should have a small line under the o. Cheers, Paul.

[Mike]

Agree with Wardog, unfortunately that style lambourne mark normally gets knocked back as duff when it appears on here

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/mak.../lambourne.htm


look at that trend for that mark- : Artists Rifles, 14th RIR, Leeds Pals, all highly collectable - does it never appear on ASC or RE etc?- I would bet no.