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  #46  
Old 21-03-16, 07:03 PM
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Alan O Alan O is offline
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Originally Posted by Car_Commander View Post
161st Regiment (12th Bn The Green Howards) never wore either the RAC badge or the Recce Corps badge. Although their title changed in 1943 they continued to wear the Green Howards cap badge. The only element of 161 to wear the Recce cap badge was B Sqn (majority) who transferred across to the 43rd Recce Regt as the replacement A Sqn. They adopted the Recce badge (and khaki beret) to blend with their new regiment, although there are plenty of stories of their members still wearing their black berets with the Green Howards badge well into late 1944 until the 43rd were issued with black berets.

Les.
And here is the evidence of the GH badges on RAC berets. Undated unfortunately.
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File Type: jpg GH ARMD CORPS WW2.jpg (77.7 KB, 88 views)
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  #47  
Old 27-03-16, 08:15 AM
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Although the following dates won't pin down the photo exactly, hopefully they'll place it generally and also help with the timing of the Recce conversion/43R adoption.

161 RAC converted from 12th Bn, Green Howards at the end of July 1942, initially formed to be the A/C regiment of 42nd Armoured Div. At some point in late 1942 whilst at Scarborough they changed over to black berets. The regiment was officially transferred to the Recce Corps 12/10/1943 as 161 Reconnaissance Regiment.

As Les mentions, the regiment continued to wear both the black beret and the Green Howards cap badge. It is highly likely that 161 Recce was the first Recce regiment to wear the black beret, the black beret started being adopted by the Recce Corps in early 1944.

B Sqn 161 Recce was selected to replace A Sqn 43 R lost in the mine explosion which sank the Derrycunihy. The 161 Recce sqn arrived in France right at the end of July 1944 and 43 Recce wasted no time in bringing them into the Recce brotherhood. According to Fred Sylvester in It's The Same Brush..., the new A Sqn was issued with khaki berets and Recce cap badges about the second week of August 1944. So for approximately one week in August 1944 it would have been possible to see a large body of men of 43 Recce wearing black berets and Green Howards cap badges. Again, as Les mentions, some undoubtedly slipped through the net even after the issue of khaki/recce badges.

161 Recce remained in the UK serving as a reinforcement regiment supplying troops to NWE. They were disbanded in 1946.

43 Recce was one of those regiments which felt particularly strongly about its Recce heritage and stuck to wearing the khaki beret long past the official orders which would have come out in early 1944. Presumably reinforcements would have been sent over later in 1944 with black berets but the Regiment wasn't having any of it, so much so that their War Diary records an entry in November 1944 stating 'In no circumstances will the black beret be worn...except for maintenance.' Still sticking to the khaki beret, it wasn't until April 1945 that 43 Recce fully and officially (i.e. they recorded it in their War Diary) replaced khaki berets with black ones!
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  #48  
Old 27-03-16, 09:20 AM
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Mike Jackson Mike Jackson is offline
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Originally Posted by Alan O View Post
And here is the evidence of the GH badges on RAC berets. Undated unfortunately.
Why were the two soldiers in the image badged Green Howards wearing the RTR arm badge? I thought that this badge was, with the exception of the Westminster Dragoons, the exclusive preserve of the RTR? Or were they are pair of RTR battle casualty replacements who had hastily been rebadged Green Howards on arrival in their unit?
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  #49  
Old 27-03-16, 09:32 AM
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Mike

I have no information on the individuals which is why I can't date it. However the cloth s/ts are RAC. Would the RTR not have RTR titles?

Alan

Last edited by Alan O; 27-03-16 at 12:53 PM.
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  #50  
Old 27-03-16, 01:15 PM
rac1944 rac1944 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Jackson View Post
Why were the two soldiers in the image badged Green Howards wearing the RTR arm badge? I thought that this badge was, with the exception of the Westminster Dragoons, the exclusive preserve of the RTR? Or were they are pair of RTR battle casualty replacements who had hastily been rebadged Green Howards on arrival in their unit?
This is an excellent point and a real puzzler, I was also under the impression that only the Westminster Dragoons held the distinction of wearing the RTR arm badge outside of RTR battalions. They're both wearing 37 pattern BDs which would lean toward an early period photo than later but even that could be explained away by various reasons.
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  #51  
Old 15-11-18, 04:26 PM
rac1944 rac1944 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Jackson View Post
Why were the two soldiers in the image badged Green Howards wearing the RTR arm badge? I thought that this badge was, with the exception of the Westminster Dragoons, the exclusive preserve of the RTR? Or were they are pair of RTR battle casualty replacements who had hastily been rebadged Green Howards on arrival in their unit?
This seems to be the answer to this puzzler, from the Daily Orders of 145RAC dated 11 March 1942:
'Officers and Other Ranks of the RTR posted to this Regiment may continue to wear the Tank Arm Badge on the right arm in all orders of dress.
In principle if 145RAC could do this then the same should, or at least could, apply to all other RAC units with RTR intakes.
John
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  #52  
Old 22-11-18, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by L&BH View Post
This regiment, like several other ones converted to RAC, kept his original cap badge instead of adopting the RAC one on the RAC black beret. I don't know if 8th battalion had a special cap badge, but I've attached a picture of the East Lancashire one.
There is (was) a display of all the capbadges in the Museum at Bovington.

Chris
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