Mistakes/Errors in Gaylor's

[Voltigeur]

Hello Gents...going on a tangent and, thinking about what Alan O wrote:
As ever Gaylor was misleading for as shown in 1917 their cap badge was the RF grenade.

OK now, is there any mistakes in Gaylor's I should know about.I understand that a book such as Gaylor's can't be error(s) free but, has someone taken notes if there are any mistakes in his books?
IF,there was any mistakes/errors in the 1971 edition,were they rectified in other printings ?
Jo

[Peter Brydon]

As a general comment, John Gaylor who was a long time Secretary of the Military Historical Society used a number of articles in the MHS Bulletins as sources about badges and by doing so perpetuated a number of errors in those articles.

Having said that, it is easy for us, years later when information is much more readily available both on line and in publications which have appeared since, to criticize the work of those who were groundbreaking authors. Before " Military Badge Collecting" badge collecting books were really just pictures of badges with minimum text.

P.B.

[Alan O]

Peter is quite correct. Gaylor was of his time but there are a number of small and some large errors in his book. His is a useful starting book for collectors but is now out dated. Some parts of it remain useful whilst others are not so helpful. For example the 1916 list of all brass economy badges is full of errors.

[Mike B]

Peter is absolutely right. We must accept that books whose bibliographies and sources are made up of 'other books' or 'articles' face the prospect of perpetuating errors. As a rough rule of thumb perhaps more weight can be placed on publications which only use 'primary source documents' from archives etc. Even then it is important to accept there can be errors of interpretation by those using those sources, and errors made by people compiling those original sources.

In terms of 'official' histories there is an interesting anecdote that the General Editor of The Official History of the Great War felt compromised in what he could publish in some instances. The story goes that he invited Sir Basil Liddell Hart to access the official documents and provide a more 'independent' interpretation in his own book.

Other examples include the account of Dieppe in Churchill's History of the Second World War, but these examples merely illustrate the importance of conducting your own research, bearing in mind who wrote what you are reading, why they wrote it, and who it was written for.

The same scope for alternative interpretations may apply to badge books etc.

Again the moral of the story is Research, research and more research. Bearing in mind research/knowledge is dynamic as we never stop learning.

Mike

[lettman]

One mistake in Gaylor that keeps appearing in dealers' listings is showing the Leicestershire Regt territorial battalions as 4th, 5th and 6th (1977 edn, p.64). The 6th wasn't territorial but a war-raised service bn, yet whenever a cap badge minus the 'Hindoostan' scroll comes up for sale, the poor old 6th reappears.

[manchesters]

Manchester Regiment (Warrant Officers 1881-1895) on Plate 19 Miscellaneous Infantry is incorrect for the following reasons.

1. There would have to have been more Warrant Officers than Sergeants due to the amount and frequency that these badges appear. I myself must have had 10 over the years and they are regularly to be seen on ebay, auctions and dealers lists.

2. All photographic evidence shows that WO's and SNCO's wore bullion badges of the same sphinx and title scroll as officers.

Never have I seen it shown in photos which leads me to think, but cant prove, that it was worn on something that cannot be seen from the front. I am therefore leaning towards Bandsman/Drummers etc pouches/bags whatever they are called that bore a device and if I was to pin it down then I would say 2nd Bn. because the Sphinx was their battle honour whereas the 1st Bn. used the Fleur de Lys.

regards

[KLR]

Peter is right about more information being available today. This started in 1989/90 when the entire RACD ledgers were made public at the National Archives. These are the primary source for the description date and type of all OR (and v occasionally officers') badges and much more. They are not great on Vol Bns or pre 1915 TF badges but you gain by sheer detail. There are also various regimental archives at the NA and elsewhere AND makers archives here and there.
More than that, the original sealed Patterns are held at either the NAM and the IWM - and some regional museums.

With all this, the offerings by the likes of Gaylor, K&K etc have had their day and they are now redundant. They are not "reference books" but photographs of various collections !

[Phil2M]

I have only used Gaylor as a guide to 'whats out there'. Not for any definite ID or references.

[Staffsyeoman]

It is easy to criticise groundbreaking work with the benefit of hindsight, and. as importantly, better access to records and materials unavailable when it was done. Certainly, a corrected edition would be of value - but to dismiss it out of hand is to overlook its enduring significance. Especially at an accessible price.

[sapper533]

Perhaps something that we sometimes all forget.....I started collecting badges when I was 8 years old in 1975, the only reference books available to me and no doubt anyone else were, John Gaylors book, Guido Rossignoli's trio of small books and a tatty copy of Major Edwards book hidden on the shelves of Manchester Central Library and of course Wilkinsons......there was nothing else for young collectors.... Kipling and King came along and suddenly things got serious.
Today we are drowning in books, private publications, magazines, and of course the Internet and that's all fantastic and of course which even today aren't with out their errors as pointed out on here regularly.
But with out the likes of Cole, Gaylor, Rissignolli, Maj Edwards et al I probably would have given up at a very early stage.
Cheers
Sean

[jean-paul Vermersch]

Hello everyone
I am French and I live in an area near Arras and Vimy. The visit of too many British military cemeteries helped me to understand what had happened here.
I was very happy to find a "Gaylord" who greatly helped me to identify the badges that I discovered at random of flea markets and militaria of my region for 25 years.
I am far from being a specialist, but I completely agree with those who have appreciated the work of this gentleman. (Sapper533 etc ...)
At home we say that perfection is not of this world !!!
Good luck to all researchers who will further improve knowledge on this subject, but it may not be "couper les cheveux en quatre (cut the hair into four) ......"

Have a good day. It is very beautiful in France.
Excuse my mistakes in English ....
Jean Paul

[billy]

Hi all, I for one am not going to critisise these books as they have helped a lot and I know they're not perfect I have good memories of Major T. J. Edwards book although line drawings I liked the badge descriptions and it kept me enthused in the hobby, but there will be a time when someone will put a book out with Digital pictures of good quality and seriosly good research, similar to K & K, and he did a mamouth job which is a foundation for all further books! I couldn't do it so hats off to those which do!!
Look forward to any New books on Badges!!!

All the best billy

[Voltigeur]

To all members who answered my question,thank you.It wasn't exactly what I expected to get,more likely...on p.xxx, badgeyyy is wrong pattern or badge vvv is wrong period but,nonetheless I appreciate those who posted answers and comments.

Again manyy thanks.

Jo

[Peter Brydon]

Jo,

From my 1971 Edition:


7th Kings Liverpools- Liverpool University OTC did not wear an all white badge as worn by the 7th Kings, Liverpool College OTC did wear an all white metal post 1926 Kings badge and may have worn an all white metal pre 1926 pattern badge.

9th Battalion Kings Liverpools did not appear to wear the all white metal badge worn by the 7th Battalion.

10th ( Liverpool Scottish) Battalion, the examples of the glengarry badge with the separate horse superimposed on the saltire were NOT Serjeants badges,if they had been, the battalion would have consisted almost entirely of Serjeants.
The Curator of the Liverpool Scottish Museum is of the opinion that the one piece striking was a WW1 economy measure.

From my Third Edition, in Appendix J- Tartan Backings-for the Liverpool Scottish gives a Forbes Tartan patch with a diagonal intersection of white lines. All the tartan backings for the Liverpool Scottish I have ever seen have had the white lines crossing horizontally and vertically.

Peter

[Alan O]

Unfortunately you would need to correct quite a lot - for example just for the small collection of pals badges you would need to annotate:

Birmingham Pals - Wore the double scroll on peaked caps but also wore the single antelope alongside it both on peaked caps and on the blue side caps in 1915.

Tyneside Irish - not cap but shoulder title.

Cardiff Pals - wrong Welsh Bn and it was a collar badge.

Manchester Pals - un-pierced bronzed badge is not shown.

25th Sportsman's Bn RF - the gilt and enamel badge was post war legion of Frontiersmen.