Commissariat Staff

[GTB]

A very nice Georgian period Commissariat Staff button.
20mm, flat. Backmark: 'IMPERIAL. ORANGE GILT'.

However, is it Georgian? If so, it would appear to predate the Commissariat Staff Corps

GTB

[Hoot]

This pattern of button was worn from 1810 to 1826 so George III/George IV period.

[Cribyn]

Hello GTB

An article on buttons of the Royal Army Service Corps and its predecessors based on the regimental history (The Predecessors of the Royal Army Service Corps by Colonel C H Massey) was published in 'Button Lines' many years ago.

It gives a date of between 1820-1826 specifically for this gilt, flat button. According to the article the same design but convex was in use between 1815 and 1820. The same design again but this time slightly convex with a closed back was in use between 1826 and 1850. The 'fully convex' same design was then in use between 1856 and 1869.

I'm not sure how accurate the article was but, as I said, it was based on the regimental history with photos from that source.

Roger

[GTB]

Hi Hoot, Roger,

Thanks for input.

My sticking point was a (misguided/misinformed) notion that the Commissariat Staff Corps was active 1850s/1860s (mid-Victorian) and all buttons seen online were convex and with QVC crown. But it was obvious to me that a flat, Georgian Crown, quality backmarked button was earlier pattern - needed confirmation, though. So thanks again, both.

Have since confirmed that backmark is ascribed to 1820s / 1830s by Tice.

It was bought at a local house auction about 30 years ago.

GTB

[GTB]

Another superior gilded button for comparison.

23mm, slightly convex, closed back. QVC. Backmark: '(star) JENNENS & Co. (star) LONDON'

Note difference in titles: 1st button has 'COMMISSARIAT. STAFF'; this button has 'COMMISSARIAT STAFF'. I wonder if this seemingly inconsequential dot has ramifications.
Possibly the earlier button for Commissariat while the later button for Cammissariat Staff Corps?

GTB

[Hoot]

That is the pattern worn from 1826 to 1850. The Commissariat Staff Corps was formed in 1859.

[GTB]

Originally Posted by Hoot

That is the pattern worn from 1826 to 1850. The Commissariat Staff Corps was formed in 1859.

Hello Hoot,

Do you have an example of the latter pattern (1859)?

GTB

[Hoot]

Originally Posted by GTB

Hello Hoot,

Do you have an example of the latter pattern (1859)?

GTB

GTB, sorry, I don't, it's been years since I gave up the hobby. As I understand it the pattern worn from 1850 to 1869 has the crown and lion within a title strap with COMMISSARIAT on the strap.

[Cribyn]

Hello GTB

The article I mentioned earlier gives the "Commissariat" titled button, with lion and crown in the centre of the strap exactly as mentioned by Hoot, a date of 1859 - just that "The Commissariat, Officers, gilt, convex, closed back 1859.".

According to the article, "The Commissariat" existed from 1859 until 1869 when it appears to have become "The Control Department" and yet another pattern of button was introduced - same strap, lion and crown but "Control Department" on the strap. So presumably the "Commissariat" button was in use between 1859 and 1869, not just in use for one year!

There seems to be quite a complicated story involving the several predecessors of the Royal Army Service Corps!

I suspect the slight variation in title on the Jennens button is just a manufacturer's variation.

Roger

[GTB]

Roger,

Yes, I agree there is a degree of complication concerning the antecedents of the RASC, but that's where all the fun begins and the surprises crop up!

Parkyn seems to leave much to be desired here. He begins with Commissariat Staff buttons, stating they had the design of a star of 8 points, in the centre of which was a crown. However, no illustration - in fact the 2 illustrations provided both have a Cross in the centre of the star. Then follows a description of Commissariat buttons with the Royal Crest within a garter inscribed with the title. Illustration of Commissariat and Transport Staff, however this is another formation altogether. There is also no reference at all to the numbered illustrations. There are obvious gaps in the chronology of the Commissariat.

Do you have details of the Button Lines issue? I need to hunt it out but am unsure if I have a copy. If not, can you provide a scan of the article, please?

Thanks,

GTB

[Cribyn]

Hello GTB

I wanted to scan some images from Button Lines onto this Forum a little while ago and being a good boy I asked the current editor for permission to do so. Unfortunately he would not give permission for any part of the Journal to be reproduced. I know copyright is a complicated subject so I just let the matter go.

Roger

[GTB]

No prob Roger,

Can you give me a date for the article? Will save a lot of hunting around. A colleague of mine may have a stash mouldering away.

GTB

[Cribyn]

Hello GTB

Sorry, I don't have a date or issue number for this article. It was published under the title "Regimental Buttons" and covered Commissariat buttons, King's Royal Rifle Corps and some others. It was from a very old issue.

I don't have access to the Button Lines Index at the moment (lost it somewhere!) but I will see if I can track it down for you.

Roger

[4966Ian]

Hello Roger and GTB,

Good memory there Roger - it does show the KRRC/Wagon Train etc.
The Button Lines in question, is Issue nos: 42 (March 1985).

Though, I should point out that the picture shown is a straight copy of an illustration plate from the book : "The Predecessors of the Royal Army Service Corps" by Colonel C. H. Massee (Gale & Polden Ltd 1948), which is credited in the article.


Cheers

Ian