Middlesex A/A badges

[Sonofacqms]

I would appreciate thoughts on these two Middlesex A/A badges, the badge with the Firmin London slider appears to be almost gold coloured rather than the obvious two tone badge with the plain slider.

Rob

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Sonofacqms

I would appreciate thoughts on these two Middlesex A/A badges, the badge with the Firmin London slider appears to be almost gold coloured rather than the obvious two tone badge with the plain slider.

Rob

Hi Rob,

I would say that the Firmin marked badge is a genuine item but poorly made (poor stop-off work) and that the other is a Gaunt piece (by the look of the slider) made in the 1980's as an unofficial commission.

On reflection (pardon the pun) - images are not that bad...

Regards,

Chris

[Sonofacqms]

Chris,

Many thanks for the reply, when you say "unofficial commission" do you mean it's a modern copy?

Rob

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Sonofacqms

Chris,

Many thanks for the reply, when you say "unofficial commission" do you mean it's a modern copy?

Rob

Hi Rob,

Basically, Yes.

Before one can evaluate if a badge is a fake/repro/etc. the manufacturing process of the original must be both understood and identified.

A/A badges cannot be easily faked due to the complex process needed to make them. However, at least one dealer, in the 1980's as far as I can tell, had a range of A/A badges made by Gaunt using the proper method of manufacture. Some of these badges are fantasy pieces while others are examples of badges previously manufactured.

I go into this in a lot more detail in my book. See:

Chapter 11: The Manufacturing Process where the making of A/A badges is covered

and

Chapter 15: Fakes and Reproductions where the manufacture of many different types of badges are covered and also my thoughts on fakes, repros and unofficial commissions.

Regards,

Chris

[Sonofacqms]

Chris,

Many thanks for your answer, no doubt that this badge not having a makers mark was not commissioned officially, but as I am not a big fan of A/A badges, (although I have been collecting them for over fifty years) I have not yet seen or bought your book.

Both of these will stay on my Middlesex board as I collect to this Regiment due to family connections.

Regards Rob

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Sonofacqms

Chris,

Many thanks for your answer, no doubt that this badge not having a makers mark was not commissioned officially, but as I am not a big fan of A/A badges, (although I have been collecting them for over fifty years) I have not yet seen or bought your book.

Both of these will stay on my Middlesex board as I collect to this Regiment due to family connections.

Regards Rob

Hi Rob,

Many early A/A badges were not maker marked (Marples and Beasley pieces often are not) and sometimes they are forgotten to be marked but your unmarked one does look like one of these later 'dodgy' items.

All the best,

Chris

[Sonofacqms]

Chris,

The unmarked badge is IMO a better representation of a Middlesex Regt badge and as I said one that I will be keeping.

How could I tell if it is a dodgy one?

Many early A/A badges were not maker marked (Marples and Beasley pieces often are not) and sometimes they are forgotten to be marked but your unmarked one does look like one of these later 'dodgy' items.


Regards Rob

[Alan O]

Rob

Best way is to buy the book.

Alan

[Sonofacqms]

Alan,

If I was forty years younger that book would have been on my Christmas list, but as I am now sorting through my badges with the idea of pruning some of the items I have collected after sixty plus years it's not on it.

The Middlesex badges will remain amongst my collection as there was a family connection, but I may sell or exchange my other A/A.

Regards Rob

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Rob

Best way is to buy the book.

Alan

I have to admit - that did bring a chuckle to my day...

[Sonofacqms]

Chris,

Out of interest, how can you tell its a dodgy badge from a screen image?

Regards Rob

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Sonofacqms

Chris,

Out of interest, how can you tell its a dodgy badge from a screen image?

Regards Rob

Hi Rob,

With a lot of investigation - some highlighted points below:

1. Investigate which A/A cap badges were officially authorised for issue in various form of military doco from the 1950's to current day.

2. Look at several thousand A/A cap badges and record every maker and maker marking on them. Reconcile these marks back to actual pattern cards/tags/packaging to check for confirmation of genuine markings and the dates they were used.

3. As part of 2) using pattern cards/tags/packaging record every slider type and again record against maker and dates used.

4. For each cap badge officially authorised, check the dates that the associated unit was in service. Does it reconcile to the date the slider or marking was manufactured or used?

5. For those blank slider badges that do not - ask fellow collectors where they got the badge from and follow the trail back to a dodgy dealer selling such items under the Arches at Charing Cross.

7. Note that the same unmarked sliders may often be found with the exact same striation marks running through it giving the impression that the sliders were made from the same strips of aluminium during a similar period of time.

From book...

"...Each was originally sold for around £25 from dealers lists and by prominent dealers of the day, in person, from under the Arches at Charing Cross. The badges represented a mixture of units that were officially authorised anodised aluminium cap badges and also of those that were not. Another dangerous fake but one that is easily identified by the lack of maker mark and ‘mirror’ reverse contouring which can be of an almost exact copy as the obverse. Although there is no direct evidence that J. R. Gaunt & Son Limited made these badges the discovery of the same slider type (usually Slider 6.9: Step) being used by both camps seems to imply, once again, that the sliders at least originated from a common source..."

For more info and detail on this issue see previously mentioned chapters (and others) in this tread which also includes lots of good info on non-A/A cap badges that has never been previously published.

Note: Not all blank slider A/A badges are bad. The early Marples and Beasley pieces are good but anything modern should be viewed with suspicion (especially if of a scarce item) until proven otherwise.

Think I've said enough for now. If anyone wishes to take this further I'll let them discuss it amongst other collectors.

Regards,

Chris

[leigh kitchen]

Hmmm buying the book sounds the easy option here.

[Sonofacqms]

Chris,

Many thanks for a most enlightening thread, I must check the sources of my A/A badges which could well take some time.

Most were bought from memory in the 1960's, some from a dealer called J E Hankin who worked out of south London.

Once again many thanks

Rob

[KLR]

Chris, to pursue this a little further, I have seen a photograph of a Liverpool Irish AA badge without any name on the slider !? Is this therefore a 'copy' / unauthorised ?

(Up to this point I have only seen Firmin, Dowler, Smith & Wright marked badges - and yes, you have described the relationship between those companies very well in your book.)

thanks
J