Known Electroformed Lance Cap Plates

[Neibelungen]

This is a list (based on Rowe's book) of officer's lance cap plates known to have an eletroformed copy in circulation.

(actually it would be easier to list those that don't)

5th (Royal Irish) :A (two patterns), B, C, F

9th C, D,E, F

12th B, C, D, E, F

16th D, E,

17th C (Wombwell plate), D (3 patterns), E, F

21st A, B, C, D

Bedfordshire Imp Yeomanry
City of London Imp Yeomanry (Rough Riders)
East Riding Yorkshire Imp Yeomanry
Lanarkshire Imp Yeomanry
Lincolnshire Imp Yeomanry


Reserve Regiment (2 patterns)

[Duplicated across from another thread as it's useful information for those who collect these. Other's are possible to exist too, but this set is confirmed by my possession of the actual moulds used and produced from between 1998 and 2004]

[manchesters]

What do all the A, B, C, D etc etc mean?

regards

[Neibelungen]

Rowe (Headdress of the British Lancers: 1816 to the present day) lists all the known plate patterns by regiment and date, with battle honour scrolls and crown types. Chapt 10 p 117-147
A is the earliest with the rest in date order.

So rather than list each one with it's description I was using Rowe's breakdown and labelling so it could be cross referenced from that as to the description.

21st
Type A QVC Title Scroll 21st Lancers No honours Left,centre right (fig 100)
Type B IMP crown Title scroll 'Twenty First Lancers' in circlet with VRI centre
"Empress of India's centre. Centre honours: Khartoum (fig 102)
Type C QVC '21st Empress of' left scroll, 'India's Lancers' right scroll VRI in centre. Centre Honour: Khatoum
Type D: As above but KC (fig 104)
All on 1856 pattern back plate

[grenadierguardsman]

Can we see one of these copies please.
Andy

[Neibelungen]

Example of plates taken from moulds;

1846 17th Lancer.

Electroformed copper, gilt and silver plated, no oxidation/patina
Made Nov 2014

[grenadierguardsman]

Wow, that area of collecting is a minefield.

[Neibelungen]

Over the New Year break I'll try to put together a collection of images of actual electroforms to help people identify characteristics and signs that the badge is made that way.

Visually from the front it can be almost perfectly identical in size and shape to the original the mould it was taken from. .
When you consider it was a process used for creating master dies and stamper plates for LP and CD manufacture as well as engraving plates for printing.

[Lancer 17]

G'day Neib

Thanks for posting this info and for your choice of plate to illustrate, it seems to have been disgussed a lot latley.

I have printed this info out for reference purposes, so thanks again.

Regards

Phil.
Happy New Year from Down Under.

[Cribyn]

Good Morning Chaps

Forgive my ignorance but just out of interest why are these superb looking plates being made?

I collect buttons not badges and I know re-enactors and the like reproduce all sorts of buttons and badges for their period uniforms but these Lancer plates are in a world of their own! They must cost a fortune to make unlike the average repro button or badge!

Are they being made for museums, use by current regiments or for collectors?

Regards
Roger

[magpie]

Like anything reproduced they must cost a great deal less than they sell for or they wouldn't bother and the more they make the cheaper they become after paying for the moulds/dies and set up fees for a private commission/ production run or runs.

[Neibelungen]

Like anything expensive, people will often accept a reproduction to fill out a collection until the can afford or one actually is available.
In most cases it's often there are simply too few on the market and the price is way beyond the average collector.

I have made a number of hats, where the customer wants a reproduction to display a plate or badge in full context, but the actual hats are often very worn or damaged when affordable, or else simply too expensive when in fine condition. Or else too rare to appear very often.

The other side is replacement of missing or damaged parts, though this is a mix between collectors and dealers who what a complete item.

The problem, as ever, is those who sell it without being clear and honest about what is genuine and what is reproduction.

[Lancer 17]

The trouble with these very accurate reproductions / fakes is that unless they are clearly marked as such the fact that they are repros is lost once they change hands once or twice and this seems to be the problem with the 2 that Aero has. Mate I feel sorry for you, you seem to be in a no win situation as no one seems willing to make a 100% decission on them and this then taints their acceptance in the market place.

My origonal doubt was that the 17th pattern didnt exist but once I had photographic evidance of its existance I was happy with that.

However as said previously I have no expertise in regard to these repros / fakes and had never heard of the process until this discussion brought it up.

Happy New Year

Phil.

[Neibelungen]

It's always going to be a hazard. As you say.. two or three stops down the line and the origin is lost.

I was sent an original Victorian lion and crown finial to reproduce for a new set of colours. Turned out on examination the 'original' was actually an electroform itself and at some point about 50 years earlier was commissioned to replace the original, which was getting rather old.

With anything, even if you mark it, cut into or raised, they can be excised or concealed/filled and your left with no mark.
Even major museums are not without having added reproductions to their collections. The Musee D'Armee in France has perhaps about 1/3rd of it's displays of 'original' uniform mannequins composed of 'reproductions' commissioned between 1850 and 1920. So even the repro's show over 100 years of ageing. A lot of theatre and pageant stuff produced within those dates was essentially hand made using the same materials and methods from the previous 100 years and with another 100 years of age can be virtually indistinguishable.