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Old 14-04-13, 09:22 PM
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Default What belongs in a museum?

Again this week I have encountered a situation where the question of "private collectors" versus a "museum" was contentious. The basic premise was that if a private collector had the material it would not be "where it properly belonged". This concept was not explained in any clear way. The gist of what I was being told was that: a) museums care for the material better b) artefacts are in some way better protected than in a private collection c) the museum is a better repository as material is available to the public d) private collectors are only into it for the money and e) private collectors have no "public conscience"(?)
I countered every point, but of course it didn't make a difference to the discussion. (What has happened to the concept of being open minded, looking at the evidence and making a reasoned conclusion? It seems that "my preformed opinion" is all that counts.)
Anyway, what should be in a museum? Especially from our badge collecting perspective?
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Old 14-04-13, 09:26 PM
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Museums, hold more than they can display, make viewng most hard to impossible (like the NAM in London...), and are likely to sell stuff freely donated, off at times.... Yeah museums are good but not necessarily any better than a decent private collection...

Tom
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Old 14-04-13, 10:40 PM
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Another angle is that collectors are often more knowledgable regarding certain artefacts than the museum staff.
Back to the original question.
A regimental museum should have examples of all of the uniforms, headdress and insignia worn by the regiment and its antecedents (I've never used that word before )
They should also be holding any artefacts with regimental connections such as silver, sports medals etc. Medals, particularly named medals, should also be in museums, but on display. The standard five or six medal group typical of Canadian soldiers who served in the Second World War should be displayed as representative. A museum does not need scads of the same unnamed medal group.
I realise that this is digressing from badges to medals, but I have found that regimental museums do not understand how significant long service medals are. Army LSGC Medals to Canadian regulars are scarce and significant as they represent the very small corps of Canadian regluar soldiers. Efficiency Medals/Decorations were very often awarded to Canadian militiamen who had joined in then 1930s and received the medal buy virtue of having gone on active service where the time was doubled towards the EM/ED. These should be in a museum and on display.

Phil
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Old 14-04-13, 11:51 PM
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Default Excellent topic Bill!

To answer your question, what belongs in a Museum? Items that have a story to tell. This means items/objects that contain or reveal some sort of historical or cultural context or at least a historical significance beyond that of simple existence.

By that I mean, Museums should not and cannot simply become warehouses or repositories of everyday objects only to become the mundane 'Noah's Arks' of inanimate objects. Good public institutions do not have the time or resources for that nonsense. Those "museums" (usually of the smaller/local interest variety) that do so generally suffer the common complaint of the public, that 'museum's are boring'… because they are.

Perhaps the question then becomes what is, or what 'makes' a "Museum" (or a 'good' museum)?

The questions of Collectors vs. Museums can be really contentious especially if you're inclined to lump them just into two simple camps. An 'Us vs. Them' mentality makes the discussion pointless. The issue is no where near that black & white.

Define a "museum"? The Canadian War Museum is a far cry some rural/community museum both in terms of scope and capability. Is a collection of mining artifacts, old bottles, milk pails, glass insulators and 1920's calendars displayed on a wall in the same building as a convenience store, post-office and Greyhound Bus stop a "Museum"? Despite what the old-tyme sign might say, I would beg to differ.

Define "collector", again not all are created equally. Some just like to have a small grouping of objects for a display - just 'neat' stuff. Some bother to learn more about the subject, some advance to wheel & deal the items as hobbyists, some research the hell out of the items and become expert in their subjects of interest. Some create large detailed displays or even private museums. All are collectors, but not of the same abilities.

First of all large public Museums really do have the resources, both in personnel and material to properly acquire, document, preserve and conserve items of historical and cultural importance.

I've recently seen some pretty large and impressive private collections but the ability of those individuals to properly house and protect these items from the ravages of time fell far short of what I've seen in even some of the poorest quality museums. And as far as the average collectors (and some far advanced) ability to document their items for provenance and posterity, that's a joke too. Both care and documentation take a lot of effort and is generally beyond the interest and purview of the avg. collector. Granted, it is a level of bureaucracy added to your spare time, but I think well worth it. It just may be the documentation that makes your collection "Museum" worthy versus, just a "bunch of stuff" in a lousy frame.

Now some armchair experts might grouse about how they have seen big mistakes in big museums in regard to displays and documentation. No doubt that happens, but in proportion to the sheer volume and variety of items in a museum vs. the items in an advanced collection. I'd still have to give the edge for accuracy, or the ability to back up their statements or at the very least, correct them with fact to a Museum, every time. Give museum staff credit as being excellent 'generalists" at the very least.

I do agree with Phil of course, that many advanced collectors, by virtue of the sheer amount of time and effort put into thier pursuits that they are more knowledgeable than Museum staff in certain areas or specific topics. that said, I think you'll find most Museum curators quite willing to listen to knowledgeable members of the public if they armed with well documented facts and not just an oral history of things they heard or misheard over the years.


In your argument Bill, I'd have to side with a large public museum over an advanced collector every time as far as care and documentation. But I would never say that private collections cannot be a place where items "belong".

Point by point:
a) Museums care for material better? I'd have to agree… on average. I'd say when you get to the small community 'display" level, some advanced collectors are better suited and more knowledgable in curating items.

b) Artifacts are in some way better protected (by Museums) than in private collections? Again, have to agree. I don't think most 'collectors' are familiar with any conservation techniques let alone have the time and material to properly treat artifacts. Some of my recent acquisitions from a very advanced collector with a private museum showed poor conservation (acidification, rot and mildew damage) as well as incomplete to non-existent record keeping and an ignorant failure to keep significant groupings intact over time.)

c) the Museum is a better repository as material is available to the public? No, can't agree there. As mentioned, common items donated to museums (especially without any documentation, or historical significance) are destined to languish in storage or be traded/sold off to acquire items more germane to the Museum's theme or mandate. I think collectors give a lot of life objects especially when a collector has their own theme or mandate, a large grouping can then take on a significance and make the common more significant and sometimes more valuable. Nothing wrong with hobbyists at all!

d) private collectors are only in it for the money!? No, that is patently false. In this hobby particularly, most people got into it because of some personal, familial interest. Those who are trading or dealing in Militaria might be in it for some personal gain or money, but it's probably not all that lucrative, unless you deal in fakes perhaps? I think where some collectors might run afoul of those that are 'historically' minded is when you have a collector sell off or break up a grouping piecemeal, getting more money for the parts than they would by selling it as a group. I know, as someone who specializes in a single regiment and it's history, it really irritates me to see groupings broken up.

e) private collectors have no 'public conscience'. Another sweeping statement that is outright nonsense. This forum alone is proof of that. Many collectors I know are quite publicly minded and care about the signficance of their items and collections. many collectors share their collections and knowledge in public forums, many donate their time and talents to public institutions. Most (all?) of the reference works in our hobby have been written by 'collectors'…

However, I think the real crux here is that many collectors do not know how to and frankly, don't care to preserve the historic context in which an item is acquired and kept. I think that is true and a great shame. 90% of the time when I inquire about an item from either a dealer or private collector about the history/provenance I get the blank 'don't know' response, sometimes followed by the squinty "what does it matter" look of contempt. Ah, if only I had a dollar for every time i heard something like, "I got it from a guy a few years ago, I think his uncle was a veteran but maybe he got it from a friend. I don't know, but I can assure you it is 100% genuine…". Okay, so it may be genuine, but so what? It had a history, it had a significance and no one bothered to record it. Now it is just another 'thing' in a riker mount...

Last edited by WJ Miller; 14-04-13 at 11:53 PM. Reason: damn typos
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Old 15-04-13, 12:15 AM
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"Okay, so it may be genuine, but so what? It had a history, it had a significance and no one bothered to record it. Now it is just another 'thing' in a riker mount... "

I often look at my badges and wonder who wore them. I console myself with the thought that it belonged to somebody who gave something for us. Maybe thats vague and sentimental but..........its the best I can do. I think its a terrible shame that the origins of all the items at a militaria fair were not recorded in the past.

My step father says that badges shouldn't have prices put on them and should only be held by museums with provenence when they are donated by families. He reckons we shouldn't collect badges privately as we did not earn the badges. I disagree with him, for a couple of reasons, one of them being that a museum doesn't earn the badges either plus , just because I don't know the original wearer, I can still use their badge as a reason to learn about his regiment.

I hope that this reads how I meant it to

Phil
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Old 15-04-13, 12:17 AM
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Old 15-04-13, 12:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie585 View Post
t is very frustrating when you come up against the concept of a museum being unwilling to share every or any detail of their particular collection.
Ry, fortunately that has not been my experience here in Western Canada. But I can see limiting access due to insufficient funds or resources for curatorial staff. I did have the experience of having access to material in a UK Museum if I wanted to come to England and go through/organize the material myself

Phil, I think for the average collector or collection, sheer sentimentality is just a good a reason as any to collect, or have a collection. And for common items there is certainly no harm in that. I have plenty of badges in a collection, just 'cuz I like the way they look, I have no idea who or where they came from and that's okay too. I also think it is perfectly fine to collect and display these items even if you didn't 'earn' them. However, wearing said badges/medals that you didn't earn as you know is something different...

(But I would think real Museums on the other hand do not have a sentimental mandate, so acquisition and their collections have differing parameters)
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Old 15-04-13, 12:48 AM
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As an after thought, regarding the "public conscience" - I would happily show anybody my collection, unfortunately, at the moment (outside of the forum) its just me and my nan, who sees it as her duty to inspect every badge, tell me if i already have one like it and to dust them regularly. She has even been known to rearrange my layouts and straighten up the lines. She is genuinely interested. I have a curator

Bill, I agree entirely with what you just said.
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Old 15-04-13, 12:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WJ Miller View Post
Ry, fortunately that has not been my experience here in Western Canada. But I can see limiting access due to insufficient funds or resources for curatorial staff. I did have the experience of having access to material in a UK Museum if I wanted to come to England and go through/organize the material myself
Never mind Bill, I suppose it is a case of us collectors / military history enthusiasts sometimes wishing that we lived in a perfect world, we don't of course and none of us are perfect either, such is life!

Regards


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I have a curator
Is your Nan available on a freelance hire basis Phil, my badges could do with a dusting?

Ry
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Old 15-04-13, 12:59 AM
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Rent-a-nan or grab-a-granny? I will have to run it by her
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Old 15-04-13, 01:06 AM
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Old 15-04-13, 06:47 PM
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I think I'm going to have to add my two cents worth, having worked as a conservator (albeit on paper artifacts) for most of my life and have nearly forty years of experience of museums. Having said that, I once got myself into deep doo-doo saying what I thought of small museums when I first started my career here in Canada. Now that I'm retired, I think I may be cut some slack. Besides, museums have improved since I said those things.

Whether a museum cares more for something than a collector, depends on the size of the museum, and the importance of what it is they are preserving. In my experience, many of the smaller museums (not just military ones) I have seen in Canada and elsewhere are well-meaning and do as much as they can with very limited resources, whereas the larger national ones have greater resources, although this seems to be dwindling now, and can put a lot more effort into caring for their collections. Yet in both cases, it's merely the tip of the iceberg. As some here have already pointed out, museums have far more items than they can possibly ever display. Disposing of surplus items often requires Board approval to deaccession if something does not meet their stated mandate. Why then do they collect it?

Some museums, not just small ones, don't want to refuse things for political reasons even though they don't meet the museum's mandate. The local mayor's wife's Barbie doll collection may not fit with the rest of the collection, but there is the possibility of extra funds by appeasing these 'benefactors', so...

The importance of some items means that they will always be given the Cadillac treatment, whereas the average medal set is just one of many. It's only when they belonged to a celebrated person that they take on more importance, even though they may be just ordinary campaign medals.

While it's true that some collectors aren't aware of proper conservation standards and guidelines, or use techniques to clean them which might have been perfectly acceptable while serving, but are not considered 'museum quality', that's not the case for everyone. There's also no excuse for not knowing. There's tons of information out there, but as with everything on the internet, beware. Not all is good.

I would agree that some individuals are more knowledgeable than museum staff. Indeed, some museums even look to them for advice. If museums don't always make their collections accessible to visitors or researchers it may be because of lack of staff, security reasons, a whole host of reasons. At the same time, how accessible do individuals want to make their collections to the average Joe? Other than having your own website, putting up albums on this Forum, or collaborating with people who are producing reference books, showing them to friends and family, if they're interested, is about the extent of it.

Perhaps the question that should be asked is: why do we/museums collect?

David
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Old 15-04-13, 08:07 PM
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Anything of historical significance that a Museum is able to permenantly display to members of the public who have an interest in such artifacts belongs in a Museum.

Sadly the amount of actual items on permenant display in modern museums seems to be getting smaller all the time. If it were not for collectors where would the artifacts that the Museums dont want or cant display end up ?

Members will recall the recent sale of regimental silver by the DLI Museum,there is an argument that regimental silver should be in a Museum.

Seems we live in a less than ideal world.

P.B.
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Old 15-04-13, 11:55 PM
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As far as I am concerned, the only thing that belongs in a museum, are the items too big to fit into my house.


Ok now that my stupidity is out of the way, IMO the museums have all the items they can possibly hold. As for the disposition of my collection goes, the Regtl Museum will be the benefactor of my Regimental collection, named medals, and such items directly related to the Regiment. The balance of it is to be buried with me.

As collectors, I do honestly believe we have much more interest, and therefore knowledge about the items we collect, than the average museum worker or even Curator for that matter.

No matter what side of the argument you are on, there seems to be no middle ground at all.
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Old 16-04-13, 07:47 AM
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Well, I don't know where to start! There is a lot of stuff collected by us nuts that wouldn't always be wanted by a museum. I have collected WW2 uniforms since the 1980s, when much of it was classed as junk. Many of the uniforms I collected were of low value(if any) then and destined for the bin, or to be cut up for the badges and buttons. Now the scene has changed a little, some of the WW2 items are highly prized and not available in some museums, so without people like myself, and there are a few other hardcore uniform collectors about, even on the forum, these items would be lost forever.
Lee
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