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  #16  
Old 03-06-12, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by REMEVMBEA1 View Post
I wonder if it's perpetuating the Redcoat in some way , there's uasually a reason somewhere in antiquity for all these customs.
It is a very old tradition in the British and by extension Empire/Commonwealth military that both officers and sergeants wear a red sash and yes, originally it was only worn with scarlet, white or KD best uniforms and not in blue or khaki serge or other working undress. The purpose was two fold, it made the officers and sergeants distinctive in the smoke and fog of war, but it also acted as litter when wounded and (in the case of officers) as a shroud. The officers sash was made of silken netting that expanded but the sergeants was woven worsted and originally with a band of facing colour through the centre. By 1881 all were scarlet and the only change was moving the sash to and fro between shoulder and waist at various periods of time. When khaki SD was first introduced the sash was not worn because it was an undress field uniform, but in an effort to dress up the drab uniform for parade in the 1920s permission was granted for the sash to be worn again. Officers however, continued only to wear the sash with best uniform and that is still the case today, when it is only worn with No1 Dress Ceremonial.

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 03-06-12 at 04:20 PM.
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  #17  
Old 03-06-12, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by L1A1 View Post
Thank you so much gents, I am amazed how much information came out of a simple question. I was totally unaware of the use of sashes by the Signals and RTR.

The reason I asked was that in the Australian Army, only infantry sergeants and warrant officers wear the sash. The only non infantry regiment that does is the S.A.S, but they originally started as part of the Royal Australian Regiment.

Thanks once again
Australia seems to follow the infantry only rules more closely. In the British Army there is often an effort to dress up the plain khaki a bit and that is why some (but not all) non-infantry SNCOs kick over the traces and wear sashes that they are not entitled to. No knowing any better, their hierarchy occasionally acquiesce. The fact remains that it is forbidden by clothing regulations.

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 03-06-12 at 04:16 PM.
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  #18  
Old 03-06-12, 11:11 AM
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My dad was an apprentice tradesman Sgt and wore one, can also confirm the use of Blue sashes at Harrogate. He was the A/T BSM aswell, will ask him if he wore one then.
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  #19  
Old 03-06-12, 01:07 PM
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My dad was an apprentice tradesman Sgt and wore one, can also confirm the use of Blue sashes at Harrogate. He was the A/T BSM aswell, will ask him if he wore one then.
At AAS Arborfield, A/T/CSM and A/TSgts (there were no A/T/SSgts) wore the red sash on parade only. The A/T/RSM wore a Sam Browne.
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  #20  
Old 03-06-12, 02:36 PM
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Sash 1.jpg Sash 2.jpg

Out of interest Para 1714, Kings Regulations & Orders for the Army 1912, amended to 1st August 1914 and Para 480, Regulations for the Territorial Force 1912 amended to 1st December 1914.
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  #21  
Old 03-06-12, 02:53 PM
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Sash 3.jpg Sash 4.jpg Sash 5.jpg

Para 505, Regulations for the Territorial Army 1924 & section from Para 542, Regulations for the Territorial Army 1936.
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  #22  
Old 03-06-12, 04:12 PM
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Attachment 64474 Attachment 64475

Out of interest Para 1714, Kings Regulations & Orders for the Army 1912, amended to 1st August 1914 and Para 480, Regulations for the Territorial Force 1912 amended to 1st December 1914.
Thanks Graham, it is interesting to see that the regulations changed very little over time.

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 03-06-12 at 04:22 PM.
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  #23  
Old 03-06-12, 04:15 PM
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At AAS Arborfield, A/T/CSM and A/TSgts (there were no A/T/SSgts) wore the red sash on parade only. The A/T/RSM wore a Sam Browne.
It doesn't change the fact that they were doing so illegally. It is an infantry item of dress and 'officially' approved for no others beyond those few corps historically associated with that arm of the army.
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  #24  
Old 03-06-12, 07:16 PM
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Sash 1923.jpg

Para 970, Kings Regulations for the Army & the Army Reserve 1923.

Sorry Toby I haven't got any later Reg's, but can honestly say that in all of those that I do have there are no references to any other Corp's but the Infantry wearing the 'red sash'.
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  #25  
Old 03-06-12, 08:25 PM
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Extracted from JSP 336 August 2005

DEFENCE SUPPLY CHAIN MANUAL JSP 336 (3rd Edition)
VOLUME 12 PART 3 PAMPHLET 4 SECTION 2

PERSONAL CLOTHING

22. Accoutrements. The following accoutrements are worn with No 2 Dress:

d. Sashes. Red sashes should be worn by duty personnel only in infantry regiments and those with infantry dress traditions. When worn the fringe of the sash is to be level with the bottom of the No 2 Dress jacket. For all others a pouch belt would be a suitable substitute. For most units this would consist of a white belt with black pouch, but with Rifles both items would be black:

(1) By WOs 1 of the Guards Division, Infantry regiments (not RGJ and Brigade of Gurkhas), SAS, SASC and APTC:

(a) Ceremonial - crimson, cotton, shoulder with tassels.
(b) Non-ceremonial - scarlet, polyester, worsted, webbing with tassels.

(2) By WOs 2, SSgts and Sgts of the Guards Division, Infantry regiments (not RGJ and Brigade of Gurkhas), SAS, SASC and APTC on ceremonial and nonceremonial occasions - sash, scarlet, polyester, worsted, webbing with tassels.

(3) By duty WOs/SNCOs - sash, scarlet, polyester, worsted, webbing with tassels, when appropriate.
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  #26  
Old 03-06-12, 08:30 PM
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Also worn by Pipe Majors in R.A. Pipe bands.

P.B.
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  #27  
Old 03-06-12, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Graham Stewart View Post
Attachment 64486

Para 970, Kings Regulations for the Army & the Army Reserve 1923.

Sorry Toby I haven't got any later Reg's, but can honestly say that in all of those that I do have there are no references to any other Corp's but the Infantry wearing the 'red sash'.
No need to be sorry Graham - I am agreeing with you. Did you misunderstand my posts?

The Corps associated with the infantry are in several cases WW2 units such as the SAS and GPR (who were both, together with Para Regt, a part of the original AAC). The 'old' departments (now Corps) of School of Musketry and Army Gymnasia Staff (now SASC and RAPTC), have worn the sash since their inception and it is laid down somewhere that they were and are still associated with the infantry in terms of dress.

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 03-06-12 at 10:15 PM.
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  #28  
Old 03-06-12, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by 54Bty View Post
Extracted from JSP 336 August 2005

DEFENCE SUPPLY CHAIN MANUAL JSP 336 (3rd Edition)
VOLUME 12 PART 3 PAMPHLET 4 SECTION 2

PERSONAL CLOTHING

22. Accoutrements. The following accoutrements are worn with No 2 Dress:

d. Sashes. Red sashes should be worn by duty personnel only in infantry regiments and those with infantry dress traditions. When worn the fringe of the sash is to be level with the bottom of the No 2 Dress jacket. For all others a pouch belt would be a suitable substitute. For most units this would consist of a white belt with black pouch, but with Rifles both items would be black:

(1) By WOs 1 of the Guards Division, Infantry regiments (not RGJ and Brigade of Gurkhas), SAS, SASC and APTC:

(a) Ceremonial - crimson, cotton, shoulder with tassels.
(b) Non-ceremonial - scarlet, polyester, worsted, webbing with tassels.

(2) By WOs 2, SSgts and Sgts of the Guards Division, Infantry regiments (not RGJ and Brigade of Gurkhas), SAS, SASC and APTC on ceremonial and nonceremonial occasions - sash, scarlet, polyester, worsted, webbing with tassels.

(3) By duty WOs/SNCOs - sash, scarlet, polyester, worsted, webbing with tassels, when appropriate.
Not sure what point you are making 54Bty?

Sub para 3 means infantry duty WOs/SNCOs, which is in context with the whole paragraph as per the first sentence of sub para d: "Red sashes should be worn by duty personnel only in infantry regiments and those with infantry dress traditions". i.e. meaning that when on duty the red sash is worn by infantry in working dress (e.g. in days past with pullovers and nowadays with camouflage of whatever pattern) as well as ceremonial and non ceremonial No2 Dress (Paras 1 and 2 refer), it is not saying that they are worn by other arms.

You can read the same paragraph in Army Mat Regs going back donkey's years and the terminology has not chaged now that it is a JSP. Having been in the supply chain for 5 different cap badges I can confirm that is the case.

It doesn't matter who wears it illegally or who turns a blind eye, the fact remains it is an infantry (and associated corps) item of dress and not any other arm of the service.

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 03-06-12 at 10:13 PM.
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  #29  
Old 03-06-12, 09:54 PM
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Also worn by Pipe Majors in R.A. Pipe bands.

P.B.
Illegally!
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  #30  
Old 04-06-12, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby Purcell View Post
No need to be sorry Graham - I am agreeing with you. Did you misunderstand my posts?

The Corps associated with the infantry are in several cases WW2 units such as the SAS and GPR (who were both, together with Para Regt, a part of the original AAC). The 'old' departments (now Corps) of School of Musketry and Army Gymnasia Staff (now SASC and RAPTC), have worn the sash since their inception and it is laid down somewhere that they were and are still associated with the infantry in terms of dress.
No mate - didn't misunderstand, was just sorry that I didn't have any later copies of KR's to assist in the batting on your behalf.
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