Glengarry/Pugarre badge QVC

[John Bull]

I have a good quality QVC Glengarry/Pugarree badge. It is in brass and I am certain it is original, the quality is perfect.

I obtained it some 25 years ago and contacted the National Army Museum and the SWB regimental museum. Both these sources said they did not recognize the badge, the NA museum even said they thought it was a horse brass. So much for the lack of knowledge of those places.

After having done a thorough web survey, I have established this :-

The item is a Glengarry/Puggaree QVC cap badge, most probably of a Monmouthshire or Brecknockshire volunteer/yeomanry battalion of the 24th Foot SWB.

It is amazing that nobody seems to recognize the badge - which IS genuine.

Can anybody on the Forum come up with some positive identification please ? Please excuse the image, it is the best one I can get. My badge is very good quality, not like this poor quality fake, but it shows what I am talking about, the detail is the same. The company stated label the badge as The Monmouthshire Regiment, almost certainly wrong since I believe this regiment never existed in it`s own right at the time.

Badge :-

[Peter Brydon]

Hello John and welcome,

I am sure members would be more forthcoming if you could post a picture of the actual badge you own.

P.B.

[Jeff Mc William]

Hi JB
This one is an "old chestnut" as they say and has been discussed many times before both in the MHS Journal and indeed on the Forum. The consensus of opinion seems to be that the original was a cast horse-brass, viz a martingale ornament for mounted officers of the Welsh Regt & the SWB etc., as a general issue.
There have been many die-struck and die-cast repros of this posing as glengarry badges, some very good, some pretty awful. At a guess I would say yours is one of the better ones. Perhaps as Peter says, could we possibly have a look (front & rear). I have also corresponded with the SWB Museum and this seems to be their opinion on the matter. Regards Jeff

[John Bull]

Originally Posted by 8thfoot

Hello John and welcome,

I am sure members would be more forthcoming if you could post a picture of the actual badge you own.
P.B.

I can do, but the image in my post should be enough to identify the badge, the details are the identical. Mine is exactly the same but much better quality. It is discolored with age and not brand new looking like the fake.

If I get no response, then I will do what you say.

This is the only badge I have ever known where nobody, even authorized bodies do not know what it is.

[Peter Brydon]

Definatley not a Yeomanry Battalion of the South Wales Borderers.

P.B.

[John Bull]

Originally Posted by Jeff Mc William

Hi JB
This one is an "old chestnut" as they say and has been discussed many times before both in the MHS Journal and indeed on the Forum. The consensus of opinion seems to be that the original was a cast horse-brass, viz a martingale ornament for mounted officers of the Welsh Regt & the SWB etc., as a general issue.
There have been many die-struck and die-cast repros of this posing as glengarry badges, some very good, some pretty awful. At a guess I would say yours is one of the better ones. Perhaps as Peter says, could we possibly have a look (front & rear). I have also corresponded with the SWB Museum and this seems to be their opinion on the matter. Regards Jeff

Thanks Jeff, most interesting.

I am aware of the "horse brass" theory, but it sure does not look like a horse brass to me. It is 100% compatible with the manufacture of a cap badge. I suppose the horse brass concept could be correct, but I would have to see an image of a horse wearing one before I concede.

I will post the front and back pics as soon as I can.

PS - Actually Jeff, the two eyelets at the back for the split pin are the same size as any other standard cap badge. They are long enough to go through cap material, but do not look long enough or strong enough for fitting through the thick leather of a horse harness.

This fact alone places me at great odds with the horse brass idea.

[Jeff Mc William]

Hi
I think you have mis-understood my "drift" JB. What I am saying is that the original devices were horse brasses, but that these die-struck pieces (possibly from the original dies) have been subsequently made and sold off as glengarry badges (with copper fixing lugs) circa 1950. As a matter of fact I do believe the SWB Museum were selling these until quite recently, tho' I don't know how they were labelled. Regards Jeff

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by John Bull

I have a good quality QVC Glengarry/Pugarree badge. It is in brass and I am certain it is original, the quality is perfect.

I obtained it some 25 years ago and contacted the National Army Museum and the SWB regimental museum. Both these sources said they did not recognize the badge, the NA museum even said they thought it was a horse brass. So much for the lack of knowledge of those places.

After having done a thorough web survey, I have established this :-

The item is a Glengarry/Puggaree QVC cap badge, most probably of a Monmouthshire or Brecknockshire volunteer/yeomanry battalion of the 24th Foot SWB.

It is amazing that nobody seems to recognize the badge - which IS genuine.

Can anybody on the Forum come up with some positive identification please ? Please excuse the image, it is the best one I can get. My badge is very good quality, not like this poor quality fake, but it shows what I am talking about, the detail is the same. The company stated label the badge as The Monmouthshire Regiment, almost certainly wrong since I believe this regiment never existed in it`s own right at the time.

Badge :-

Very suprised the SWB museum could not help you, they sold these for years and had them made for tourists and visitors!

Andy

[John Bull]

A million thanks to you all on this matter. The plot thickens.

I have just spent a long time scanning the web on this matter, it is annoying not to find a positive answer for a badge that is perfect and not a forgery. I looked up horse brasses and YES many regiments do have their badges as horse brasses. My knowledge of horse fittings is zero, so I must concede that my badge "could" be a horse brass, but it is not entirely substantiated by all the information surrounding it.

As all the data states that there was no Monmouthshire or Brecknockshire Regiment of Foot in 1881 Victorian times, then this strange badge connection with the SWB is very strong, albeit rather mystifying.

If the officers of the SWB had a horse brass, it would contain a Sphinx and possibly the 24, not a Dragon which represents Monmouthshire and Brecknockshire. But as at that time the SWB consisted of Volunteer and Militia battalions, some of which were Brecknockshire units, then either the officers of the SWB used the Dragon horse brass in respect, or only the officers of the Brecknockshire battalions did. Perhaps the men wore this Dragon badge on their Glengarry`s also, who knows ?

The badge is die caste and to make hardened steel dies of such complexity and minute detail is extremely expensive, even today. The Victorians would never indulge in such an uneconomic expense just for a few horses. Horse brasses were exact regimental badges, it would not be worth doing otherwise.

So, there must be more to it than a few horse brasses. My assumption is stated above, where the badge was also worn on the Glengarry`s of the Monmouth and Brecknock affiliated battalions within the SWB.

Wiki gives a clue with this :-
Original composition of the 1881 24th Regiment of Foot - SWB
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When the Regiment was associated with a number of Welsh counties after it became the South Wales Borderers in 1881, it gained those counties' militia and volunteer battalions. These were:

* 3rd Battalion - formerly the Royal South Wales Borderers Militia (Royal Radnor and Brecknock Rifles)
* 4th Battalion - formerly the (Royal Montgomery and Merioneth Rifles Militia)
* 1st (Brecknockshire) Volunteer Battalion
* 2nd Volunteer Battalion
* 3rd Volunteer Battalion
* 4th Volunteer Battalion

Territorial Force

In 1908 the Territorial Force was established and the Volunteer battalions joined it. These became:

* The Brecknockshire Battalion - formerly the 1st Volunteers
* 1st (Rifle) Battalion, The Monmouthshire Regiment - formerly the 2nd Volunteers. It transferred to the Royal Regiment of Artillery in 1940
* 2nd Battalion, The Monmouthshire Regiment - formerly the 3rd Volunteers
* 3rd Battalion, The Monmouthshire Regiment - formerly the 4th Volunteers

It looks very much as if the assumptions I made above, plus the Wiki data most likely provide the answer to this mystery. But I am amazed that there are no official military records to corroborate al this.

John

PS - I will still post the pics if my camera will focus properly.
It is astonishing that the SWB Museum have been selling a badge that they do not know what it is - not a very good testimonial. When they told me they did not know what it was, it was them who referred me to the National Army Museum. That was 20-25 years ago.

[KLR]

I think it might help if you could provide dimensions and weight.

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by John Bull

A million thanks to you all on this matter. The plot thickens.

I have just spent a long time scanning the web on this matter, it is annoying not to find a positive answer for a badge that is perfect and not a forgery. I looked up horse brasses and YES many regiments do have their badges as horse brasses. My knowledge of horse fittings is zero, so I must concede that my badge "could" be a horse brass, but it is not entirely substantiated by all the information surrounding it.

As all the data states that there was no Monmouthshire or Brecknockshire Regiment of Foot in 1881 Victorian times, then this strange badge connection with the SWB is very strong, albeit rather mystifying.

If the officers of the SWB had a horse brass, it would contain a Sphinx and possibly the 24, not a Dragon which represents Monmouthshire and Brecknockshire. But as at that time the SWB consisted of Volunteer and Militia battalions, some of which were Brecknockshire units, then either the officers of the SWB used the Dragon horse brass in respect, or only the officers of the Brecknockshire battalions did. Perhaps the men wore this Dragon badge on their Glengarry`s also, who knows ?

The badge is die caste and to make hardened steel dies of such complexity and minute detail is extremely expensive, even today. The Victorians would never indulge in such an uneconomic expense just for a few horses. Horse brasses were exact regimental badges, it would not be worth doing otherwise.

So, there must be more to it than a few horse brasses. My assumption is stated above, where the badge was also worn on the Glengarry`s of the Monmouth and Brecknock affiliated battalions within the SWB.

Wiki gives a clue with this :-
Original composition of the 1881 24th Regiment of Foot - SWB
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When the Regiment was associated with a number of Welsh counties after it became the South Wales Borderers in 1881, it gained those counties' militia and volunteer battalions. These were:

* 3rd Battalion - formerly the Royal South Wales Borderers Militia (Royal Radnor and Brecknock Rifles)
* 4th Battalion - formerly the (Royal Montgomery and Merioneth Rifles Militia)
* 1st (Brecknockshire) Volunteer Battalion
* 2nd Volunteer Battalion
* 3rd Volunteer Battalion
* 4th Volunteer Battalion

Territorial Force

In 1908 the Territorial Force was established and the Volunteer battalions joined it. These became:

* The Brecknockshire Battalion - formerly the 1st Volunteers
* 1st (Rifle) Battalion, The Monmouthshire Regiment - formerly the 2nd Volunteers. It transferred to the Royal Regiment of Artillery in 1940
* 2nd Battalion, The Monmouthshire Regiment - formerly the 3rd Volunteers
* 3rd Battalion, The Monmouthshire Regiment - formerly the 4th Volunteers

It looks very much as if the assumptions I made above, plus the Wiki data most likely provide the answer to this mystery. But I am amazed that there are no official military records to corroborate al this.

John

PS - I will still post the pics if my camera will focus properly.
It is astonishing that the SWB Museum have been selling a badge that they do not know what it is - not a very good testimonial. When they told me they did not know what it was, it was them who referred me to the National Army Museum. That was 20-25 years ago.

John,
please don't take this the wrong way, but despite what your badge may look and feel like, it is almost certainly not genuine. I first saw these in and around the 1970s, like I said they were sold by the museum in Brecon and on most of the wonky dealers lists. Martin Marsh would knock you one out for about £3.99 in those days. I doubt your search will uncover anything other than this is a Fantasy item. The one I have looks "Genuine" too, but isn't.

Best regards

Andy

[John Mulcahy]

To help the conversation a little I can offer the images below of the approved patterns for the 4th & 5th VBns S.W.B. from WO359/21

As you can see the 4VB glengarry badge is a different design to the badge illustrated in post 1 while the 5VB data does not show a Glengarry badge (I do not know if this means they had none or that none was recorded).

[John Bull]

It is most interesting to hear all the comments and I gratefully appreciate every one of them. Thank you.

But in Victorian times the manufacture of press dies involving intricate detail was a "hand job", they did not have the computerized facilities that we have today to generate hardened steel dies. Such dies are VERY expensive and do not warrant producing a sharp image badge just to decorate a horse or sell fake products.

Cavalry regiments ? Perhaps, but not infantry of the line.

For decorative purposes like horse brasses, they would have used sand molding which is much cheaper, as would any fake badge enterprise.

The British military authorities records are non-existent in providing an answer to this question. An astonishing state of affairs.

It is all very well saying that these badges were produced for frivolous reasons, but I do not buy it at all because of the high manufacturing cost involved.

The cost of manufacturing press dies in Victorian times would have been astronomic, even in today`s high-tech productive technological environment and my badge IS very accurate, sharp cut and detailed. far more than is necessary for a hose brass of fake collectors market would be prepared to endure.

Unless some official or reputable source can produce an answer to this particular badge configuration, then we are left with opinions and everybody has one of these.

My opinion has already been stated, this badge IS a genuine Glengarry badge worn by the Monmouth and Brecknock volunteer battalions of the 1881 - 1908 SWB, or possibly by some other Welsh volunteer or Militia formations.

I will not accept the horse brass or reproductive market for duping collectors as an answer.

The quality of this badge is superb and must have been done by using the original dies. This is not economically justified to provide ornaments for horses, which is a laughable suggestion and the presence of this badge could only be justified in terms of economic volume because of the extreme cost of dies and production involved to produce it.

I have drawn my conclusion on this subject and unless some official information is produced, that is the way it stays. We all have opinions and what I have stated is mine, which is as good as anybody else's under the circumstances.

I am satisfied that albeit astonished no official conclusion on this matter is available for some inexpiable reason and unless some poster has any positive and revealing information to add, I consider my question and thread as being closed. unsatisfactory - yes, but there it is.

My sincere thanks to every one of you for taking part in this matter.

[badger123]

Is this a wind up ?????????

[John Bull]

Originally Posted by badger123

Is this a wind up ?????????

What a disgusting comment after so much logical detail.