ROYAL MUNSTERS OSD BZ CAP BADGE

[MH331]

Does anyone have an example of the OSD BZ RMF Offs Cap badge-Is it the same size as the ORs version?

THANKS Mark

[John Mulcahy]

Mark

from what I know there appears to be two distinct patterns worn.

The early (1904) dress regs state that the OSD cap badge is as per the forage cap badge but in bronze. This means that it is the same size as the O/R forage cap badge. The illustration from those regs is below on the left.

However it is clear from many contemporary photos that as early as 1914 this badge was replaced by the collar badge size badge which in the photos I have seen appears to be the silver gilt undress collar badge (Rickard page 16). I speculate that this was an unofficial regimental practice. The badge was worn on a shamrock backing from 1915 when Lt. Col. Rickard of the 2nd Battalion introduced a shamrock backing for the cap badge which was soon adopted by all battalions (I know I have the primary source for this but can't find it off hand whether it is Mc Cance the regimental historian or Mrs. Victor Rickard's "The Story of the Munsters").

A few years ago I bought the badge below in the United States, note how unusual the spread of flames are. It is the same size as an O/R forage cap badge. I think it is genuine but I have never seen photographic evidence it was worn (the flame pattern would make it quite distinctive, even in B/W photos) and I welcome all observations on it.

sincerely

John

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by John Mulcahy

Mark

from what I know there appears to be two distinct patterns worn.

The early (1904) dress regs state that the OSD cap badge is as per the forage cap badge but in bronze. This means that it is the same size as the O/R forage cap badge. The illustration from those regs is below on the left.

However it is clear from many contemporary photos that as early as 1914 this badge was replaced by the collar badge size badge which in the photos I have seen appears to be the silver gilt undress collar badge (Rickard page 16). I speculate that this was an unofficial regimental practice. The badge was worn on a shamrock backing from 1915 when Lt. Col. Rickard of the 2nd Battalion introduced a shamrock backing for the cap badge which was soon adopted by all battalions (I know I have the primary source for this but can't find it off hand whether it is McCance the regimental historian or Mrs. Victor Rickard's "The Story of the Munsters").

A few years ago I bought the badge below in the United States, note how unusual the spread of flames are. It is the same size as an O/R forage cap badge. I think it is genuine but I have never seen photographic evidence it was worn (the flame pattern would make it quite distinctive, even in B/W photos) and I welcome all observations on it.

sincerely

John

This is an interesting quote from HANSARD and I wonder if it had anything to do with the action of Lt Col Rickard:

ROYAL MUNSTER FUSILIERS.

House of Commons Debate 01 August 1898 vol 63

CAPTAIN DONELAN (Cork, E.) I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War if he can state why the Royal Munster Fusiliers are not allowed to wear the shamrock badge (granted to them in 1881) upon their uniform; whether any other regiment possessing a special badge is prohibited from wearing it; and whether, having regard to the fact that the Royal Munster Fusiliers is the only regiment upon whom the shamrock badge has been conferred, the propriety of permitting this national emblem to be worn upon the uniform will be favourably considered?

MR. BRODRICK I have nothing to add to my reply of Thursday last. This regiment has never been granted a right to the shamrock badge, and has never worn it.

CAPTAIN DONELAN Is the honourable Gentleman aware that the Royal Dublin Fusiliers, who were constituted at the same time and under the same conditions, wear the two badges to which they are entitled, and cannot the same course be adopted in regard to the Royal Munster Fusiliers?

MR. BRODRICK I do not think the honourable Gentleman quite understands. The Royal Munster Fusiliers were given the right to wear the shamrock in their colours; they have never had the badge, it was never conferred on them, they have never asked for it, and have never worn it.

CAPTAIN DONELAN Is it not a fact that the two badges are indicated in the Army List——?


MR. SPEAKER Order, order! The honourable Gentleman is debating the answer. He has received a full answer to the Question.

CAPTAIN DONELAN Is the objection due to the fact that the badge happens to be the shamrock——?

MR. SPEAKER Order, order!

[MH331]

John, Toby,

Many thanks. I have just purchased this RMF OSD bage from a dealer with a very sound pedigree. These are his pics, I'll take more when it arrives.

Mark

[leigh kitchen]

A strange RMF OSD cap badge which I have just acquired & which will not remain in my possession for long.

It resembles an O.R.s hollow die struck badge on which the detail on the tiger has been lost through polishing but with a light bronzed finish overall, possibly a very thin wash of some kind. The badge shows no signs of having been polished through the finish which is pristine.

It actually looks far better in the photos (apologies for quality of those) than it does in the hand.

I have no idea why the photos are appearing horizontal rather than vertical.

[KLR]

[QUOTE=John Mulcahy;106799]


The early (1904) dress regs state that the OSD cap badge is as per the forage cap badge but in bronze. This means that it is the same size as the O/R forage cap badge. The illustration from those regs is below on the left.

John, surely the 1904 DR description of the bronze service cap badge being 'as for forage cap' refers to the previous page which describes the badge worn 'On the puggaree, cloth forage cap or glengarry'. In other words a bronze version of the officer's rather than other ranks badge !?

I admit though, I know nothing about relative sizes of officer's or OR's RMF badges !
J