68th Foot Glengarry Badge

[Madagas2002]

Hello again,
Can someone tell me if in their opinion this badge is a real one, or a restrike.

Thanks in advance

[Jeff Mc William]

Originally Posted by Madagas2002

Hello again,
Can someone tell me if in their opinion this badge is a real one, or a restrike.

Thanks in advance

Hi M. I'm afraid there are many repros about, and I am sorry to say (despite the "ageing" ) this looks like one of them ! For starters, the lugs should be brass and N-S mounted. If it weighs about 14grammes tho', it could be a "Fox's" restrike which may be of some consolation. Regards Jeff

[Mike]

Originally Posted by Jeff Mc William

Hi M. I'm afraid there are many repros about, and I am sorry to say (despite the "ageing" ) this looks like one of them ! For starters, the lugs should be brass and N-S mounted. If it weighs about 14grammes tho', it could be a "Fox's" restrike which may be of some consolation. Regards Jeff

Hi Jeff, see this post and link to Bosleys, I think Mr King's old badge was lugged E-W? (if we're on the same badge)

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...0&postcount=16


[I've accidentally deleted some posts trying to get this subject from three threads to one - sorry, got fat fingers]

[Jeff Mc William]

Hi Mike. Thanks for the very interesting input.
All I can say for certain on this is that both Hugh King and Bill Carman (among others) have always stated categorically that all genuine "garter" and "stringed bugle" glengarry badges had brass lugs N-S, and indeed my own experience in forty years of collecting seems to support this. Unfortunately I can find no reference to this in the ACD records. So I am a little puzzled by Bosleys declaration. I guess it could be that Hugh King had a few undetected Fox's repros among his collection (dare I say that !??), but my own notes confirm that my badge to the 68th Foot had N-S lugs. Sadly all my collection has gone now and all I have is my notes..not absolute proof I know. Regards Jeff

[Madagas2002]

Originally Posted by Jeff Mc William

Hi M. I'm afraid there are many repros about, and I am sorry to say (despite the "ageing" ) this looks like one of them ! For starters, the lugs should be brass and N-S mounted. If it weighs about 14grammes tho', it could be a "Fox's" restrike which may be of some consolation. Regards Jeff

Hi Jeff,
Thank you for your opinion.
I polished up one of the lugs and it came up copper.
I also weighed the badge and it is 16 grms.
I think I just need to find a dealer that I can trust.
All the Best.
John

[Jeff Mc William]

Originally Posted by Madagas2002

Hi Jeff,
Thank you for your opinion.
I polished up one of the lugs and it came up copper.
I also weighed the badge and it is 16 grms.
I think I just need to find a dealer that I can trust.
All the Best.
John

Hi John, Sounds like the weight is about right...the die-cast fakes are much heavier,(sometimes double that), so it sounds hopeful. From what Mike has said re the late Hugh King's badge, I could be wrong on this one but dont think so. At least it sounds as if it is a matter of opinion among the "experts". But mine definately had N-S lugs as did Bill Carman's example. Best of luck with the dealers. Regards. Jeff

[Mike]

Originally Posted by Jeff Mc William

Hi Mike. Thanks for the very interesting input.
All I can say for certain on this is that both Hugh King and Bill Carman (among others) have always stated categorically that all genuine "garter" and "stringed bugle" glengarry badges had brass lugs N-S, and indeed my own experience in forty years of collecting seems to support this. Unfortunately I can find no reference to this in the ACD records. So I am a little puzzled by Bosleys declaration. I guess it could be that Hugh King had a few undetected Fox's repros among his collection (dare I say that !??), but my own notes confirm that my badge to the 68th Foot had N-S lugs. Sadly all my collection has gone now and all I have is my notes..not absolute proof I know. Regards Jeff

Not sure about the Bosley description, but if I ever dabble in this area the badges will have to comply with your own, and the Carmen / King description, ie. N-S Brass lugs.




got my book at the ready....

Now, for the first time, an important aspect of badge collecting has been written up in detail as a comprehensive study. The first distinctive cap badges generally introduced for the rank and file of the British Army were those worn on the glengarry cap, which was gradually adopted from 1868 onwards. In 1881 territorial regiments of infantry were formed, resulting in many changes of title and the abolition of the old regimental numbers. In Glengarry Badges of the British Line Regiments W.Y. Carman, Deputy Director of the National Army Museum, illustrates all the badges worn by the infantry of the line both before and after the 1881 reforms, and provides an erudite description of the badges, their battle honours, and dates of wear, which will be an invaluable guide for collectors of badges and military uniform enthusiasts alike.

[Mike]

I just need to find your book now.

just out of interest, noticed on Carman's 5th Foot badge small defects which are also repeated on Dave's (Wright241) badge.

album pic :

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ictureid=27020

[Mike]

Here's a broken one from the junk box, I'm 101% convinced about this one being ok, given to me when buying other militaria.

Not in Carman's Book, but is in K&K ?? brass lugs

[Jeff Mc William]

Hi (again) Mike. Thanks for your three latest posts. Yes, I also have a copy of Carman's book (now sadly out of print). If you are interested, I think my books are in the forum book list. I do not hold any copies for sale myself, this is all done by DP&G, tho' I can send further details via a PM if you are interested.
Thanks for the pics of the small 70F badge, unfortunately my notes on this are very sparse, but your pics cleared up one point, viz brass lugs N-S. Thanks again. Jeff
PS: The 5th Foot badge in Dave's album is well described in Denis Wood's book "The Fifth Fusiliers and its badges" privately published in 1988

[mooke07]

Recently at the Northern Militaria Fair in Durham a dealer opposite Peter Taylor had a 68th Glengarry that I was interested in. It had some paint/varnish on the front and had been attached to a collectors board at some time. Peter was most helpful about this and a number of other badges that day. The E-W lugs were enough to put me off and hence it was still there when I left the show.

I too am a keen collector of Durham items especially WW1 period and am chasing a glengarry as well but shall wait for N-S lugs.

I have a number of glengarries in my collection all from reliable sources in the UK - several from Wallace and Wallace and other reputable auction houses. All are N-S lugged and all I believe to be genuine. I use Carman as my guide.

Have enjoyed the discussion as ever, Dean

[wright241]

Originally Posted by Mike

I just need to find your book now.

just out of interest, noticed on Carman's 5th Foot badge small defects which are also repeated on Dave's (Wright241) badge.

album pic :

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ictureid=27020

And there was me thinking that this was - at last - a genuine 5th Foot GG.
Everything - apart from what I read in (Carman's) the aforementioned book (which I always thought was an error) led me to believe that this was the real McCoy. It looked exactly the same as one I used to own - and sold ast W&W years ago. David will be pleased. Not.

Jeff,
As this was bought very recently (as genuine) from another forum member, I would value your opinion on this badge (no disrespect intended Mike). If necessary, I could post a picture of the back - unfortunately, I won't be able to do this for about 3 weeks as I don't have it with me.
Please let me know one way or the other as this could be yet another badge that I will scrap - which may (in the end) prove to be ok.
Best rgds, david

[Mike]

And there was me thinking that this was - at last - a genuine 5th Foot GG.
Everything - apart from what I read in (Carman's) the aforementioned book (which I always thought was an error) led me to believe that this was the real McCoy. It looked exactly the same as one I used to own - and sold ast W&W years ago. David will be pleased. Not.

Hi David, I wasn't suggesting anything - it was just an observation, I've just had a look in Denis Wood's book and his is exactly the same -likely from the same dies. Wood + David + Carman all the same.

[wright241]

Originally Posted by Mike

Hi David, I wasn't suggesting anything - it was just an observation, I've just had a look in Denis Wood's book and his is exactly the same -likely from the same dies. Wood + David + Carman all the same.

Mike,
Okey dokey and thanks. Not by my best at the moment as I received an 'offer' to 'become a German' or else....... i.e. do it, or leave at the end of November.... Only for the agency to tell me 10 minutes ago that they made a mistake and want me to stay another year....... Some mistake. Glad to hear its a goody.
Leaving early today, as I am ever so slightly peeved about such an error......
Over and out.
david

[Jeff Mc William]

Hi David.
As you will see from the attached extracts from Denis Wood's book (and indeed the comments in my own book), that this particular badge (ie fig 121) is a very controversial item:
As you probably know, it is not in K&K's book because, I believe, he did not consider it genuine. However, it is in Carman's book..(in fact it is illustrated on the front cover)..so I guess he must have considered it "pukka" ! However, the footnotes on page 44 of Wood's book must throw some doubts on this, and I am sorry to say in my opinion it has been "made-up" from a post 1881 die. I did correspond with Denis Wood on this topic and he said he was keeping an "open mind" about it but he does have one in his own collection. So I doubt if anyone has any proof one way or the other at this late stage. I guess it will be up to the various dealers what stance they adopt when it comes to buying and selling. Regards Jeff

Denis Wood book (1).jpg Denis Wood book (2).jpg