Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers One Piece Piper's Badge

[irishhorse]

Seen this today, what's the forums opinion on this one ? I've not seen another two piece badge too compare it with !

[ebro]

A lot depends on what size this is. It looks like a Royal Irish Regiment Officer's 2 piece Collar badge.
Eddie

[ebro]

RIR Colonel with two piece collars.

[irishhorse]

Originally Posted by ebro

A lot depends on what size this is. It looks like a Royal Irish Regiment Officer's 2 piece Collar badge.
Eddie

Eddie. Its the correct size for the piper badge. The badge partially visible beside it, is an Irish Guards piper's badge.

[ebro]

The bottom section of that badge looks like the Inniskilling Fusiliers Piper's badge, but I have never seen it with the scroll above.
Eddie

[irishhorse]

Originally Posted by ebro

The bottom section of that badge looks like the Inniskilling Fusiliers Piper's badge, but I have never seen it with the scroll above.
Eddie

Think they were introduced before WWII.

[ebro]

This photo of Inniskilling Fusiliers Pipers in North Africa with 38th Irish Bde..
There is no scroll above his badge!
The scroll does not seem very practical with a hackel.
Eddie

[irishhorse]

There is a few pictures in Regiment Magazine Part 2 . Shows it being worn 1945, and along side the small pipers badge in 1968. Seen it also worn on the pipers cross belt in Pomp and Ceremony magazine.

[ebro]

The Cross Belt, I could see it being worn there.
Eddie

[Alex Rice]

I have no idea but I like piper's badges and the in my opinion, if I saw this on sale, the poor quality would put me off. The back is very rough and the chromed finish looks too modern for a genuine IF badge.
Cheers,
Alex

[John Mulcahy]

Danny

I have come across one reference of this badge being used as a pipe majors badge and a baldrick badge. That reference was from George Martin in his capacity as editor of the 'Aide Memoire" the bulletin of the UMHS. Attached is that article, it pre-dates 2006 but I disassembled the edition to file and did not record the date of this one. George claims 1929-1939. The images from the 1960's below may be one and the same design as this.


It is quite believable in my mind that the PM would have worn a different pattern badge to the pipers. Certainly it is well documented that in the case of the final pattern pipers badges the PM wore a badge with scroll over the castle see the images below from 1968 (middle) and the painting by F. Scot dated 1965. You mention these in post # 8.

The first officially sealed pattern badge the SPN 3587 sealed 27/10/1921 [WO359 VOL. 18 p25]. A photo of that is shown second from the right, and there was indeed a second pattern introduced as SPN 10173 and sealed in 05/1927 [WO 359 /18 p153 MC 503] and appears as Badge Bonnet in the 1929 PVCN as Vocabulary No 1885. This coincides with George's claimed introduction date for the 2 piece PM design - all quite believable in my opinion.

Pattern 10173 is the one shown on the far right below which is I think the pipers pair to the PM 2 piece design.

John

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by ebro

A lot depends on what size this is. It looks like a Royal Irish Regiment Officer's 2 piece Collar badge.
Eddie

Eddie

this was design intent of the 1927 design which turned out to be a disaster as far as the other ranks badge was concerned. But the officers version was rendered more true to the design intent which is the attached image.

John

[irishhorse]

Originally Posted by John Mulcahy

Danny

I have come across one reference of this badge being used as a pipe majors badge and a baldrick badge. That reference was from George Martin in his capacity as editor of the 'Aide Memoire" the bulletin of the UMHS. Attached is that article, it pre-dates 2006 but I disassembled the edition to file and did not record the date of this one. George claims 1929-1939. The images from the 1960's below may be one and the same design as this.


It is quite believable in my mind that the PM would have worn a different pattern badge to the pipers. Certainly it is well documented that in the case of the final pattern pipers badges the PM wore a badge with scroll over the castle see the images below from 1968 (middle) and the painting by F. Scot dated 1965. You mention these in post # 8.

The first officially sealed pattern badge the SPN 3587 sealed 27/10/1921 [WO359 VOL. 18 p25]. A photo of that is shown second from the right, and there was indeed a second pattern introduced as SPN 10173 and sealed in 05/1927 [WO 359 /18 p153 MC 503] and appears as Badge Bonnet in the 1929 PVCN as Vocabulary No 1885. This coincides with George's claimed introduction date for the 2 piece PM design - all quite believable in my opinion.

Pattern 10173 is the one shown on the far right below which is I think the pipers pair to the PM 2 piece design.

John

John. There is a photo on page 12 of Regiment Magazine part 2. It appear to show the two piece badge worn by a number of pipers c 1945. I believe George got the dates of the badges use from the Ulster Museum. Not sure where they got them from.
Danny

[John Mulcahy]

Danny

thank you for the head's up. I must have glanced at the photo many times but never looked at the bonnet badge. You are right under magnification they are two piece badges. I do not know if the date of 1945 is accurate - can that unusual angle of the caubeen help date it accurately, what do you think?

I did a little digging tonight as your observation got me thinking that there appears to be at least 4 castle designs in use from the mid 1920's to mid 1960's - that is a lot of change.

I decided to look at the IWN online database and found I have been wrong all along in my assumption about the first official Sgt Pipers and Pipers badge. I thought SPN 3587 would be that castle badge shown below and dated as 1921 in Harris' book. But it is not.

That pattern card is transcribed on the IWM data base as a grenade badge....

Physical description

badge, split pin, card, 2 seals . Thick card label . ms, top: Obsolete, 54/Infy/5796, G/150, 11/5/27; Cat 1409 . badge: A bonnet badge for Pipers of the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, being a flaming grenade, the flames in a semi-circle, on the ball of which is the castle of Inniskilling with St. George's flag flying to the left from the central tower; below the castle a scroll inscribed INNISKILLING. Grenade and flames in gilding metal, castle and scroll in white metal. Pair of lugs to reverse. Also on the label a cotter pin. . Standard . Standard / No. 3587 / 1921 . Badge Bonnet, GM & GS, with shanks & pin. / Sergt. Piper & Pipers / Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers . (When finished to be German Silver 12 gauge, Gilding Metal 14 gauge. For quality of metal see 4480/1897 & 4481/1897 and - deleted) Specn. (ACD/888A - deleted). U/24; . approved 27/10/21 (signature illegible); authority given as 54/Infy/4643, 30-6-21; . Reverse, ms: 1893; 130; Locker (27, 130 - deleted) . Badge and pin secured tp label with white cotton tape and sealed to reverse with two brown sealing wax seals bearing the Royal Arms encircled War Department Pattern.

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30075178

I assume this is a suitably larger grenade for use by pipers- I may get a chance to view this pattern in the coming month. If I do I shall report back.

I also assume if it was ever worn - it was only for short time before the regiment started replacing it with castle pattern badges.

lots to ponder....


John

[Alex Rice]

Originally Posted by John Mulcahy

Danny

It is quite believable in my mind that the PM would have worn a different pattern badge to the pipers. Certainly it is well documented that in the case of the final pattern pipers badges the PM wore a badge with scroll over the castle see the images below from 1968 (middle) and the painting by F. Scot dated 1965. You mention these in post # 8.

Totally agree but I would expect the PM's badge to be of much higher quality, usually silver plate, if not silver.
Cheers,
Alex