1st Regiment of Foot Guards Ammunition Pouch Badge

[aussiemike79]

I picked this up the other day at an antique store for a nice price. I know it is 1st Regiment of Foot Guards and that it was worn on the ammunition pouch at Waterloo but I'm not sure how early it was used. There is some evidence it was worn in American Revolution according to outfitting warrants around 1776 describing the inversed and intertwined GR.

Does anyone have any information to share on this? It would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

IMG_20191231_143645.jpg

[grenadierguardsman]

1760-1820 was he's reign.
Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by aussiemike79

I picked this up the other day at an antique store for a nice price. I know it is 1st Regiment of Foot Guards and that it was worn on the ammunition pouch at Waterloo but I'm not sure how early it was used. There is some evidence it was worn in American Revolution according to outfitting warrants around 1776 describing the inversed and intertwined GR.

Does anyone have any information to share on this? It would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

Attachment 216400

I think it’s from the latter end of his reign. The pattern believed to have been used in the early part was a simpler design and more crudely made from yellow (aka ‘candlestick’) brass. From memory, I think it can be seen in Pierre Turner’s seminal book on British Army equipment.

[Frank Kelley]

I would certainly in interested to see a photograph of it's reverse.

Originally Posted by aussiemike79

I picked this up the other day at an antique store for a nice price. I know it is 1st Regiment of Foot Guards and that it was worn on the ammunition pouch at Waterloo but I'm not sure how early it was used. There is some evidence it was worn in American Revolution according to outfitting warrants around 1776 describing the inversed and intertwined GR.

Does anyone have any information to share on this? It would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

Attachment 216400

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

I think it’s from the latter end of his reign. The pattern believed to have been used in the early part was a simpler design and more crudely made from yellow (aka ‘candlestick’) brass. From memory, I think it can be seen in Pierre Turner’s seminal book on British Army equipment.

Any chance of an image Toby ?
Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

Any chance of an image Toby ?
Andy

I will try and find it. You might recall the strong circumstantial evidence that these cartouche and later, shoulder belt badges, were the genesis of metal regimental insignia for other ranks that evolved over a century to become forage cap badges. Thus I believe that very appropriately the Foot Guards began the tradition of the types of badges that now absorb us all in this forum. We discussed this in the ‘Grenade Fired Proper’ thread.

[badgecollector]

hi all
looks cast to me and that may be the way they were made back then but has unusual looking attachments to the rear. how would it have attached?
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1st-Regi...frcectupt=true

bc

[Frank Kelley]

I would be amazed if that was original, it looks of recent manufacture.

Originally Posted by badgecollector

hi all
looks cast to me and that may be the way they were made back then but has unusual looking attachments to the rear. how would it have attached?
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1st-Regi...frcectupt=true

bc

[manchesters]

Am I correct in believing that the badge shown at the start of this thread by Aussie Mike is the exact same badge as being sold on ebay in Australia shown above?

If so then clearly a modern cast FAKE.

regards

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

Any chance of an image Toby ?
Andy

I enclose originals for the 1st and 2nd Foot Guards circa 1776-1782. The 1st Foot Guards used a standing Lion at that time, but the 2nd Foot Guards were already using the Garter Star. The most common (but not universal) configuration for the pouch badge of all regiments was an often unmarked circular strap surmounted by a Crown. Line regiments invariably had their number in the centre, although some of the oldest regiments were already using a special ‘device’ (emblem) that had been awarded to them as a mark of distinction. In many cases the badges had been cast. Another common badge before 1776 had the Sovereign’s cypher, GR, in cursive script within the strap in lieu of a number.

[Frank Kelley]

I just assumed they were both out of the same stable, they certainly appear completely spurious.

Originally Posted by manchesters

Am I correct in believing that the badge shown at the start of this thread by Aussie Mike is the exact same badge as being sold on ebay in Australia shown above?

If so then clearly a modern cast FAKE.

regards

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

I just assumed they were both out of the same stable, they certainly appear completely spurious.

I too think that it’s a cast reproduction of the pattern authorised in 1800. Enclosed is the equivalent design for the 2nd Foot Guards that was introduced at the same time. Notice that only the central device is different. The badge adopted by the First Foot Guards in 1800, also enclosed, bears a great similarity to that used much later on the valise. The 3rd Foot Guards used the star of the Order of the Thistle as their cartouche pouch badge.

[grenadierguardsman]

Thanks Toby, nice to see. More evidence the better.
Thanks again
Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

Thanks Toby, nice to see. More evidence the better.
Thanks again
Andy

Glad to help, Andy. These might interest you as a guide to the period:

1. http://military-historians.org/compa...rds/guards.htm

2. https://www.scribd.com/document/2675...-Boxes-Pouches

[aussiemike79]

Hi all, yes it is the same badge on ebay. I found it incorrectly named in an antique store recently. Interesting to hear it is fake, I haven't seen any other fakes of this badge and it seems a lot of effort for someone to make a single fake and then sell it under the wrong name.
It has the same tabs for attachment at the back as others of the same era but without the holes drilled through them, according to the link from toby. I don't see any difference in the manufacture of this badge to those of the same era in said link.
I also had to clean a decent amount of corrosion off it which means it is not of recent manufacture at any rate, manchesters.