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  #1  
Old 19-08-19, 05:57 AM
kingsley kingsley is offline
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Default Four more arty cloth badges

If anyone can help, I would like to know exactly when these four gun badges started and finished. Amazing how many variations there are.
I have another somewhere with white cotton stitching and will post it when it turns up.
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  #2  
Old 19-08-19, 06:49 AM
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First 2 are first half of the 20th Century.

3rd one is Australian WW2 and after

4th one anytime from Victorian times to today.

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  #3  
Old 19-08-19, 03:28 PM
cbuehler cbuehler is offline
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The bullion on blue one has been worn since Victorian times as mentioned, but judging from the poor picture, the style and brightness of the embroidery would indicate a more modern example.

CB
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  #4  
Old 19-08-19, 04:00 PM
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A few more examples, there are many maker's variations. Bronze finish is Australian.

Tim
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  #5  
Old 19-08-19, 04:01 PM
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More

Tim
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  #6  
Old 19-08-19, 04:20 PM
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Gun sleeve badges in post 1;

1. Circa 1902, for Service Dress, left and right versions.
2. Canadian pattern.
3. Australian cotton woven pattern for Khaki uniform, when ever that came in.
4. Wire embroidered c1843, left and right versions. A new pattern came in circa 1952, right sleeve only.

Marc
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Last edited by 54Bty; 20-08-19 at 07:45 AM. Reason: Correction from post 7.
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  #7  
Old 19-08-19, 07:35 PM
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Yep, agree with Marc except No 3 which is Australian, cotton woven, introduced in 1949 for khaki drill and abolished in 1952 when such distinctions were no longer authorised. Note it was manufactured in left and right versions because rank was worn on both arms from 31 August 1949, and it was part of the badge of rank and appointment of Master Gunners only, as the badge for senior NCO of the Royal Australian Artillery had been abolished during the Second World War (even though it was still worn in metal unofficially in some regiments as the distinction of a Gun No 1 until as late as 1965).

You'll find the bottom gun is also Australian in manufacture, and probably dates from after 1933 when gold embroidered badges were approved again for the Permanent Forces only in full dress. Loads of them came onto the market late in the 20th Century as the Australian War Memorial off-loaded stuff that had been dumped on them post-WW2.

Keith
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  #8  
Old 20-08-19, 09:20 PM
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Was the Master Gunner an SNCO or a warrant officer please?
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  #9  
Old 21-08-19, 05:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumpy View Post
Was the Master Gunner an SNCO or a warrant officer please?
Depends on what period Grumpy. I think he once had only the status of Senior Non-Commissioned Officer (NCO) but in 1881 the rank of Warrant Officer was extended, and the appointments of Master Gunner 1st and 2nd Class then held the rank of Warrant Officer.

The 3rd Class Master Gunner was a Senior NCO up until 1917 in the Australian Military Forces (AMF) (1915 in the British Army I think) and then on the creation of Warrant Officer Class One and Warrant Officer Class Two, he became the latter, and Master Gunners 1st and 2nd Class became the former. Change was 1917 in the AMF but again I think the change was 1915 in the British Army.

Keith
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Old 21-08-19, 09:15 AM
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Three pics and a couple of questions for the forum. I have two right facing "Gun" badges, (Australian), one of which I show here. Both badges are embroidered on the material shown which in turn is attached to a mesh-like material and all attached to a piece of newspaper then covered by thin brown paper. Q. What on earth was the purpose of the newspaper ? Q.2. What was the red badge in scan 3 used for? Note, there is a small cartoon depicting a rather frumpy looking woman looking at herself in a mirror and a reference to "Dior" the fashion designer. Well, at least that dates the newspaper to no earlier than 1947!
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  #11  
Old 21-08-19, 09:48 AM
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The newspaper acts a a cheap and readily available in quantity "stiffener" when the fabric's stitched / embroidered.
I have a couple of WWII era German "trade" badges with the remnants of newspaper on the back although it's almost all removed leaving the layers of paper sandwiched out of sight between the embroidery and fabric.
I have some Vietnam War American insignia with newspaper used as a stiffener but I think they're fake or repro with the newspaper serving a practical purpose but also possibly adding a touch "authenticity".
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  #12  
Old 21-08-19, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artynut View Post
I have two right facing "Gun" badges, (Australian), one of which I show here. Both badges are embroidered on the material shown which in turn is attached to a mesh-like material and all attached to a piece of newspaper then covered by thin brown paper. Q. What on earth was the purpose of the newspaper ? Q.2. What was the red badge in scan 3 used for?
The 'Australian' gun badge you show is in fact New Zealand. There has been a thread on the forum previously that actually identifies the maker in New Zealand from the newspaper usage. I can't locate it at the moment.

There is also a worsted on khaki badge of like design for battledress, and I suppose the red backed badge in the next picture might originate from New Zealand as well.

Keith
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  #13  
Old 21-08-19, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fairlie63 View Post
Depends on what period Grumpy. I think he once had only the status of Senior Non-Commissioned Officer (NCO) but in 1881 the rank of Warrant Officer was extended, and the appointments of Master Gunner 1st and 2nd Class then held the rank of Warrant Officer.

The 3rd Class Master Gunner was a Senior NCO up until 1917 in the Australian Military Forces (AMF) (1915 in the British Army I think) and then on the creation of Warrant Officer Class One and Warrant Officer Class Two, he became the latter, and Master Gunners 1st and 2nd Class became the former. Change was 1917 in the AMF but again I think the change was 1915 in the British Army.

Keith
Thank you.
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  #14  
Old 28-08-19, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 54Bty View Post
Gun sleeve badges in post 1;

1. Circa 1902, for Service Dress, left and right versions.
2. Canadian pattern.
3. Australian cotton woven pattern for Khaki uniform, when ever that came in.
4. Wire embroidered c1843, left and right versions. A new pattern came in circa 1952, right sleeve only.

Marc
Sorry Marc, just revisited this, I didn't mean to suggest I disagreed with you in the next post, only that I had more info to add on No 3.

A question I do have - c1843 for the introduction of the 'gun' badge for SNCO of the RA, do you have a source? I am presuming that it is the 'cannon' from the award to the RA of the Royal Arms, together with a Cannon, and the Motto...etc.

Does anybody have any idea on the attached gun badges - I have wondered if they were RNZA for the green shirt in Singapore or Malaysia.

Keith
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  #15  
Old 29-08-19, 01:16 AM
kingsley kingsley is offline
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Default White stitching variety

I found the other badge I mentioned in the first post, sorry no back scan available. Comments appreciated.
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