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  #1  
Old 31-01-15, 09:33 AM
2747andy 2747andy is offline
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Default Grenadier Guards - "J.R. Gaunt Montreal".

Gentlemen,
your thoughts on this one please?

Is it;

a. A badge made in Canada for the Canadian Grenadier Guards.

b. A badge made in Canada for use by the British Grenadier Guards.

c. Possibly both.

Could anyone please add the possible period of use/rough date of manufacture?
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  #2  
Old 31-01-15, 10:41 AM
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Andy,

a. A badge made in Canada for the Canadian Grenadier Guards.

Date- WW1 ish, IMHO.

regards
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  #3  
Old 31-01-15, 12:49 PM
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Simon has it. The Gaunt concern in Montreal made badges for the Canadian market. There is nothing in the record to suggest the badges went to the UK.
Dating is a bit more of an issue. The Canadian Grenadier Guards plain grenade badge, without the royal cypher, is not recorded in the standard references but other sources indicate it was worn by the CGG. It was worn around the time of the First World War, but the CEF battalion supposedly only wore a cypher pattern badge. (This has been challenged and research has suggested tha the plain grenade pattern was worn as well.) It has been suggested that the badge was worn post FWW as well. A similar badge (if not the same pattern as this one) was also worn by the 10th Royal Grenadiers of Toronto, and a plain flaming grenade badge was also worn by the 11th Regiment (Irish Fusiliers). The latter is supposed to be a bit larger in overall size.
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Old 31-01-15, 03:47 PM
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There is a small amount of papers concerning the Canadian operation amongst the Gaunt archives in Birmingham Reference Library. Apart from their existence I did not make any detailed notes but remember that most of it concerned the business side.
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Old 31-01-15, 04:59 PM
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In my Canadian Artillery badges only the pre - 1926 badges have the Gaunt, Montreal plate, if that assists in dating.

regards
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  #6  
Old 31-01-15, 09:50 PM
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A non-cyphered grenade badge was worn by the CEF 245th Bn in which the lower flames went slightly upwards from horizontal. See: http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/can...e/cef_e245.htm

Andy's badge is not that one. The 87th CEF had a similar pattern with a cypher, as Bill notes, as well as one with "pointier" flames: http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/can...ce/cef_e87.htm

Could the one Andy is showing be a 1920's Winnipeg Grenadiers badge?

Cheers, Ian.
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  #7  
Old 01-02-15, 12:36 AM
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On looking at some post-war Winnipeg Grenadiers badges the flame pattern is different from Andy's example.
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  #8  
Old 01-02-15, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill A View Post
Simon has it. The Gaunt concern in Montreal made badges for the Canadian market. There is nothing in the record to suggest the badges went to the UK.
Out of interest, what makes you think Gaunt Montreal badges were made in Canada and even more of interest, if so, where?
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  #9  
Old 01-02-15, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warstone View Post
Out of interest, what makes you think Gaunt Montreal badges were made in Canada and even more of interest, if so, where?
The information I have is that Gaunt (Montreal) badges were made (at least at some stage) in Birmingham (UK) and exported to Canada. I say that because several years ago when the Gaunt archive was auctioned here in the UK, three or four Canadian Police badges came my way which were tableted Gaunt (Montreal) Made in England. Gaunt also had offices in other parts of the world. New York was one location. I believe that the staff there were simply tasked with selling products. The actual items being made in the UK and then exported. I'm firmly convinced that the Canadian police items in question have never seen the light of day in Canada and I suspect that must be the case in respect of a number of Gaunt made Canadian military items which are in the UK.

Dave.
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  #10  
Old 01-02-15, 10:01 AM
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Here's another example with such a plate to the Scottish Horse: http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...light=Montreal

Best,

Marcus
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  #11  
Old 01-02-15, 12:24 PM
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Hello Warstone, Dave has given part of the answer. The understanding is that the British made badges were plated with the Gaunt Montreal/ Made in England and imported to Canada. There was insistence that materials purchased for the militia be made in Canada where practical. Badges with Gaunt Montreal were supposedly made in Canada, while the Made in England badges were imported and distributed by the firm. The Gaunt firm operated in Montreal. The Canadian operations of J.R. Guant were purchased by Scully's in 1984?
Dave, I believe you are correct regarding the police badges. Some badges were made in the UK and then sent to the customer. It is likely that the badges you have never left the country.
I am not sure what to make of the Scottish Horse badge.
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  #12  
Old 01-02-15, 04:46 PM
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This is a very enlightening thread for me.

It was my assumption that as the 'JR Gaunt, Montreal' included the City of Montreal in its title, then the badges were made there.

From what Warstone says he seems to believe they were in fact NOT. I am not arguing with that but would like to know for sure, if anyone can confirm whether JR Gaunt did actually manufacture in Montreal or not.

I have got a "JR Gaunt, Montreal" plaque on a British made "TF" Artillery cap badge with an applied CANADA top scroll. So there are two conclusions that can be made from that.

1. It was made in the UK, then shipped to Canada to have the top CANADA scroll applied and a 'JR Gaunt, Montreal' plaque applied also
or
2. It was all made and altered in the UK, them shipped complete to Canada.

Charlton No- 140 -1-2, covers the existance of these badges, but doesnt confirm where the alterations were done, other than to say GAUNT.

I have a RCHA shoulder title with a STAMPED in makers mark of ,"J.R.GAUNT, MADE IN ENGLAND". I havent seen this on a plaque.

So, is there a difference in Country of origin for the JR Gaunt mark with the added 'Made in England', or were all made in England.

Confusing isnt it.
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  #13  
Old 01-02-15, 06:02 PM
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It is an interesting thread. Made me re-think some assumptions. Digging into the Gaunt issue, there are other CEF badges made by Gaunt, which is another question to be explored.
Simon, there are a couple more possibilities. The die or dies may have been shipped to Canada, or perhaps altered dies were made and sent to Montreal.
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Old 01-02-15, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill A View Post
It is an interesting thread. Made me re-think some assumptions. Digging into the Gaunt issue, there are other CEF badges made by Gaunt, which is another question to be explored.
Simon, there are a couple more possibilities. The die or dies may have been shipped to Canada, or perhaps altered dies were made and sent to Montreal.
Bill,

Yes thats another possibility, but WARSTONE seems to think that Gaunt didnt manufacture badges in Montreal?

regarsd
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  #15  
Old 01-02-15, 06:38 PM
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Hi Simon, Digging into that angle. The government of Canada was loath to spend money on companies outside of Canada for certain items, and there was quite a bit of political lobbying to make sure public stores were bought within Canada. It may be that Gaunt was set up as a distributor in Canada, and it is certain that some Canadian badges were made by Gaunt in the UK. Collectors' conventional wizdumb has been that the Gaunt Montreal plates were Canadian made badges, and the Gaunt Montreal Made In England were plates put on badges to meet certain import rules. It seems odd that those tags would be applied in the manner that they are if all the badges were made in the UK. Will do some more research.
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