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  #121  
Old 01-11-20, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by dumdum View Post
I was intrigued to see that a well-known website (not eBay) is claiming that these badges were worn by individuals providing transport for the wounded (the ambulances being "transport"......).

Much as I respect the opinions of this site, I feel that this is an interesting theory for which I would like to see definitive proof.
According to this set of 'Standing Orders' for HMNZ Transports dated 6th April 1915 the ships transported horses (possibly mules ?) and lots of cigarettes (three smoke breaks in the morning and three in the afternoon/evening) !


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File Type: jpg HMNZ Transports.jpg (55.5 KB, 6 views)
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  #122  
Old 01-11-20, 09:15 AM
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AND they've removed almost all trace of the Gaunt mark and the raised number to the back of the crown......

I could see that being worn as a spurious cap badge(?) by someone who felt it lent them some authority.
Purely to be pedantic , the 1915 enamel badge either had the larger Gaunt makers mark around the top of the badge (as in the horrific example) or a small Gaunt makers mark on the back of the crown. They didn't have any raised 'series' letter.

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  #123  
Old 02-11-20, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dumdum View Post
I was intrigued to see that a well-known website (not eBay) is claiming that these badges were worn by individuals providing transport for the wounded (the ambulances being "transport"......).

Much as I respect the opinions of this site, I feel that this is an interesting theory for which I would like to see definitive proof.
Two well known websites have the exact same description :

"Non-combatants who volunteered to drive ambulances during the First World War were designated 'His Majesty's New Zealand Transports' (HMNZT)."



The National Museum of the Royal New Zealand Navy has a different view :

"At the start of World War One the New Zealand Government chartered a number of merchant ships and converted them for troop carrying.

The ships were manned by their civilian officers and ratings, the distinction given to them was a button-hole badge which declared that they were serving on New Zealand Transports."

https://navymuseum.co.nz/explore/by-...ps/troopships/


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  #124  
Old 02-11-20, 02:30 PM
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The badges in question, with thanks and acknowledgements to DumDum.

Cheers, Tim

PS: both stamped on the buttonhole fixing G M BAY
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Last edited by Chipper; 02-11-20 at 02:33 PM. Reason: add info
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  #125  
Old 03-11-20, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_vee View Post
According to this set of 'Standing Orders' for HMNZ Transports dated 6th April 1915 the ships transported horses (possibly mules ?) and lots of cigarettes (three smoke breaks in the morning and three in the afternoon/evening) !


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And they had lots of bacon, cheese, salty corned beef, rum (when it was issued) and many lived well into their 90's....
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  #126  
Old 09-11-20, 08:25 AM
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If a readily available badge had badly damaged enamel it is unlikely to sell , remove all the enamel and it becomes an 'oddity' that may attract attention and get a few bids.

I've no plans to bid , just 'watching' to see how much it eventually goes for.
It did attract attention and went for 19.88 + 3.95 postage , you could get a good condition enamel one for that price !


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  #127  
Old 18-11-20, 11:28 AM
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As my 'missing enamel' 1914 badge was not an unknown version I gave it a good clean and "polish" (normally I just wash with soap) and will keep it as an 'oddity'.

I got hold of an Admiralty badge (for a reasonable price) , I have doubts about it's authenticity but as it is only the third example I've seen I can't really judge.

It is 26mm as opposed to the standard 1914 OWS version which is 25mm.

After cleaning , with soap and water only , I'm not sure if it is tarnished or if base metal (brass ?) is showing through. First photo in natural light , second photo 'one click' enhanced.

I don't know who made this badge (no makers mark) or if they came (like 1915/1916 badges) in different finishes such as silver/chrome/nickel ?

Bosley's has one described as "nickel plated brass".

All opinions welcome and if anyone discovers any definitive information about this 'elusive' badge please let me know.

Final point , if this badge was 'faked' then why are there so few examples around ?


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File Type: jpg OWS Clean.jpg (55.6 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20201118_080834.jpg (84.8 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20201118_080834 (1).jpg (87.6 KB, 11 views)
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  #128  
Old 19-11-20, 02:26 AM
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Hi Mike

My two ones look as if they are solid nickel but I'll discreetly test them and let you know.

I would think that the slightly frosted appearance of your one is the result of being "ground dug" rather than being a casting.

As you say, if they've been copied you would expect to see more of them...
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  #129  
Old 21-11-20, 02:57 PM
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Stll trying to solve this puzzle.

Decided to compare examples of 'Admiralty' and 'HMNZ Transports' badges using ones found on-line and noticed similarities. The photos show that both badges have '10 balls' on each arch of the crowns . (see photos).

What confuses me is that my 'Admiralty' badge , dumdum's enamel version and all the basic 1914 ones I've seen have '9 balls' , so why would they change the crown on these two badges ?

The HMNZ Transports badges were manufactured in New Zealand by C.M. Bay , would he have simply copied the crown design of the Admiralty badge or (a complete wild shot !) could some of the 'Admiralty' badges have also been made by him ?(unofficially , so unmarked).

Q 1: Were there Admiralty staff based in New Zealand to deal/liase with the merchant ships ?

Q 2: If my badge is a 'fake' why does it have the standard crown (used by numerous British manufacturers) and not the '10 ball' version used by Bay's ?

PS. Thanks to James for being my 'sounding board' .
Attached Images
File Type: jpg ADMIRALTY.jpg (78.9 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg TRANSPORTS.jpg (92.4 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg Admiralty 1.jpg (87.6 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg Enamel Transports 1.jpg (56.3 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg 1914 OWS 1.jpg (68.0 KB, 3 views)
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  #130  
Old 23-11-20, 09:56 AM
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Hi Mike

No, I will guarantee that your Admiralty badge is quite OK.

Never thought to count the balls on the Crown (a great idea!). Bay would have been going off a standard 1914 badge I'm sure (either a drawing or a real example) and maybe just thought that the extra ball added nothing, if I've understood you correctly.

I'll do some work on an online archive I use and see when they first mention the HMNZT badge. This might help us to see if the standard, blue enameled badge appeared around the same time!

My two Admiralty silver-coloured badges both came from the UK. Must photograph them for you and the Forum!

You'll see that I've just sent you a photo of one of the HMNZT badges if you check your email!
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  #131  
Old 23-11-20, 10:31 AM
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Got your e-mail , thanks.

I'm now even more confused ????

Tim posted a photo (post #124) showing two of your badges , the enamel one has '9 balls' and the plain HMNZ one has '10 balls' .

The photo you sent me is of a plain HMNZ (C.M. Bay) badge with '9 balls' which , to me , appears to be 100% genuine based on markings/wear etc.

So , are the '9 ball' versions of both badges the genuine ones and the '10 ball' ones fakes ? Or were two different versions manufactured and where/why ?


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  #132  
Old 23-11-20, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dumdum View Post
I'll do some work on an online archive I use and see when they first mention the HMNZT badge. This might help us to see if the standard, blue enameled badge appeared around the same time!
The standard OWS 1914 enamel badge was introduced in late 1914 with an Admiralty memo of 26th December 1914 giving it the title "Admiralty War Service Badge".

The first of the NZ Transport ships , Moeraki , departed on 15th August 1914 along with the Maunganui .

The Maunganui and a further 9 ships departed on 16 October 1914.

In total 111 journeys were made by transports , the last being on 3rd October 1918.

I can't find any info about when the HMNZ Transports badge was first issued but would assume that authority from the Admiralty would be required so possibly after the official OWS badge therefore probably early 1915 ?

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  #133  
Old 23-11-20, 01:10 PM
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Hi Mike

very, very interesting. Just to hopefully add to the data base, I measured both today, and while it won't be 100% accurate, it is certainly close. As expected, the 9 ball crown is smaller, but only by a small amount. It's a good question as to the plain ones - were there 2 dies? But were there enough made to justify 2 dies? Maybe one broke and they had to make another? so, anyone with a plain version - post it here! The more we see, hopefully the clearer it will get. I'll put a pic up of the maker mark as well.

cheers, Tim
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File Type: jpg IMG_7729.jpg (97.9 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_7733.jpg (107.8 KB, 1 views)
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  #134  
Old 23-11-20, 01:17 PM
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1) plain
2) enamelled
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File Type: jpg IMG_7737.jpg (32.9 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_7736.jpg (42.5 KB, 3 views)
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  #135  
Old 23-11-20, 01:19 PM
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to my eyes, very different stamps there, which can't be unusual, but certainly worth looking at.
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