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  #16  
Old 21-09-20, 09:16 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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An interesting photo of Sergeant Thomas Lang who sailed with the NZAPD 2nd Reinforcements, he is wearing a 5th Wellington collar badge and a number 5 on the shoulder.
Prior to the war, Lang was first assistant to the Chief Accountant of Lands and Survey, his only military service had been school cadets.
So why the 5th Wellington badges?

Pay department NZAPD, Sergeant Thomas John Lang.jpg
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  #17  
Old 27-09-20, 12:06 AM
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5th Wellington Regiment badges being worn by members of the NZEF in the Middle East and Europe is ultra-rare.

The following picture is of Sergeant Cecil Stuart Robertson 22/10, it was taken at Bilbeis, Egypt and is dated January 1916.

Sergeant Robertson had no previous military service prior to him joining the 5th Reinforcements as a member of the NZAPD.

Pay department 21-10 Sergeant Cecil Stuart Robertson.jpg

Pay department Sergeant Cecil Stuart Robertson (2).jpg
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  #18  
Old 27-09-20, 12:27 AM
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The following picture taken at Zeitoun camp, Egypt, Christmas Day 1915, shows Sergeant Robertson seated in the centre, the tall sergeant standing on the right is Sergeant Eric Sclanders, 21/24, NZAPD 8th Reinforcements, and person seated on the far right is Pay-Sergeant James Hastings Babington, 21/22, NZAPD 8th Reinforcements.

Pay department A group from the Sergeants Mess, Zeitoun camp, Egypt, Christmas Day 1915.jpg
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  #19  
Old 27-09-20, 12:37 AM
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The following picture shows Sergeant Cecil Robertson’s dug out on ANZAC, Gallipoli.

Pay department 21-10 Sergeant Cecil Stuart Robertson ANZAC.JPG


The following picture shows how close a shell landed to Robertson’s dug out.

Pay department 21-10 Sergeant Cecil Stuart Robertson ANZAC shell.JPG
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  #20  
Old 27-09-20, 12:50 AM
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Another ANZAC dug out view

Pay department 21-10 Sergeant Cecil Stuart Robertson snow ANZAC.JPG
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  #21  
Old 04-10-20, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevjp View Post
Guys,
Just trying to piece the time-line of the New Zealand Pay Corps.
According to Geoff Oldham's and Dave Corbett's books

- Prior to 1917 the function of the NZ Pay Corps was handled by Civilian personnel.
David Corbett’s conclusion that “the duties of pay and finance were carried out by civilian personnel until 31st May 1917,” is clearly incorrect, and most likely based on information available at the time of his research.
Information presented so far proves the NZEF Army Pay Department were not civilian personnel.

But what about the NZAPD who served with the Home Service Branch, and were attached to all the New Zealand training camps and to each of the District Headquarters?

Well, it is possible that some civilians who were not fit for overseas duty, may have been given uniforms and served with the NZAPD in the New Zealand training camps, but after Gallipoli, most of those positions were replaced by returning servicemen who were no longer fit for overseas duty.

I happen to have records showing Staff Sergeant Robertson (posts 17 – 20), and Pay Sergeant Kenneth Elton Shorney, (NZAPD, Service Number 16/1337), both for health reasons were returned to New Zealand.

Robertson was promoted Lieutenant on the 2nd July 1917, and on the 13th July 1917 was appointed Inspecting Accountant for the District Quarter Master General, a position placing him in charge of inspecting and auditing all the training camps Paymasters accounts. However, it is possible that the last person who was Inspecting Accountant to the DQMG, may have been a civilian.
Robertson was promoted Captain 17th October 1917.

As for Captain Kenneth Shorney, he went on to become Command Paymaster of the Dunedin district, resigning that position in May 1919.
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  #22  
Old 04-10-20, 07:18 AM
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The following picture shows Staff Sergeant Stratford John Collett, NZAPD, Service Number 58324, and Staff Sergeant Alfred Herbert Williams, NZAPD, Service Number 22660.

Both embarked on the 4th October 1918 with the 41st Reinforcements, and the photo is taken aboard the troopship.
Unfortunately the badges are not clearly detailed, but am leaning to the collar badges being type 8/290.

Pay 41st Staff Sergeant Stratford John Collett, NZAPD, Service Number 58324, and Staff Sergeant .jpg
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  #23  
Old 05-10-20, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevjp View Post
Guys,
Just trying to piece the time-line of the New Zealand Pay Corps.
According to Geoff Oldham's and Dave Corbett's books
- On the 31st of May 1917, the New Zealand Army Pay Department was established.
Prior to the outbreak of WW1, the NZ Army Pay Corps, the NZAOC, and the NZASC only existed on paper, and were awaiting to be constituted and established as part of the NZ Army Permanent Forces.

Both Corbett and Oldham’s books state “the New Zealand Army Pay Department was formed on 31st May 1917.”
I would suggest the official date that the New Zealand Army Pay Department, and the New Zealand Army Pay Corps were officially constituted and established, is the 1st April 1917.


The following regulations under the Defence Act. 1909, have been gazetted, and come into force as from April 1, 1917
Part I.
New Zealand Army Pay Department Establishment,
1. The New Zealand Army Pay Department
, is hereby constituted and established as part of the Permanent Staff of the Defence Forces, and shall consist of the following officers The director of financial services, the accountant, four command paymasters (one in each military district).
2. Officers of the New Zealand Army Pay Department shall be granted the following substantive ranks
Director of financial services—Colonel, Lieutenant-Colonel. or Major.
Accountant and Command Paymasters (on appointment)—Lieutenant, after two years service Captain.
3. Previous service in the above appointments. whether in a civil capacity or not, prior to the coming into force 'of these regulations shall count towards promotion. —

Part 2.
13. The New Zealand Army Pay Corps,
is hereby constituted and established as part of the Permanent Force.
14. The N.Z.A.P.C. shall be officered and commanded by officers of the N.Z.A.P.D. The D. of F.S. commands the said corps at headquarters, and the command paymaster commands all members of the said corps within his district.
15. The following shall be the establishment of the N.Z.A.P.C.
2 Warrant officers.
6 Staff sergeants.
10 Other ranks.
16. During the present war the establishment laid down in the last preceding regulation may be exceeded to the extent set forth in General Orders.
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  #24  
Old 05-10-20, 08:43 AM
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General Orders July 1917
NZ Army Pay Department distinguishing patch.

General Orders July 1917.jpg
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  #25  
Old 05-10-20, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atillathenunns View Post
I would suggest the official date that the New Zealand Army Pay Department, and the New Zealand Army Pay Corps were officially constituted and established, is the 1st April 1917.
You are quite correct that 1 April 1917 was the establishment date of the NZAPD and NZAPC as part of the NZ Army Permanent Forces.

What confuses matters is that the NZAPC and the NZAOC (which was also established as part of the NZ Army Permanent Forces on 1 April 1917) had also been established as units of the NZEF early in the war.

Althought sharing a common name and role, the NZEF NZAPC and NZAOC had little or no relationship with the NZ Corps of the same name.
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  #26  
Old 20-11-20, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atillathenunns View Post
By any chance do you have any pictures of the "second type of badge" being "worn during WW1"?

Cheers
Brent
I am going through Matt Pomeroy's photo collection, helping him identify his unknown WW1 soldiers . I have identified the NZer as Walter Thomas Roots 50123, and he is wearing second type NZAPC hat badge .
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File Type: jpg Pomeroy Unknown128 Front.jpg (37.3 KB, 16 views)
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  #27  
Old 21-11-20, 07:59 AM
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Has this not solved a several decades debate ?
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  #28  
Old 23-11-20, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pukman View Post
Has this not solved a several decades debate ?
Puk, I don’t know about a decade’s debate, but certainly since we solved the NZAOC badge riddle 4 years ago, I have been searching for certain pictures of NZAPC badges to see if they followed the same practice as taken by the NZAOC.

So far, I have only found one picture that shows the so called “First type NZAPC badge” as being approved for wear within Army training camps in New Zealand.

Yours and Matt’s fantastic picture of Walter in England (taken some time after 1-12-1917) suggests to me that the so called “Second type NZAPC badge” was approved for wear by NZAPC members of the NZEF.

All we need now to solve the last part of the NZAPC badge enigma, is to confirm what badges were worn by members of the New Zealand Home Service Branch? which I suspect will also be the First type.
Finally, it stands to reason both types were adopted after the 1st April 1917, as with the NZAOC, were both types worn by the NZAPC post 1919?

Last edited by atillathenunns; 23-11-20 at 08:47 AM.
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  #29  
Old 29-11-20, 09:56 PM
Ahipara Ahipara is offline
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This is a very interesting badge James and I would be keen to know more about this department. Do you have any information about it?
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