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  #16  
Old 26-03-21, 10:26 PM
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Bugger! so took in by the Font to notice!!! Thanks (slinking off to hide!!)
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  #17  
Old 27-03-21, 07:45 AM
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Billy,
Donít chuck that C spelling badge out. The 16th Cardiff City Battín wore an all brass C spelling version during the 1st World War. I donít know yet why this version was produced pre-1920 but am fairly certain that this type of badge does date to earlier than the official change to the C spelling.
Hwyl,
Kevin
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  #18  
Old 27-03-21, 08:04 AM
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delated
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  #19  
Old 28-03-21, 07:42 AM
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Now that is very nice, the plate is oval and tends to be seen upon early badges.


Quote:
Originally Posted by billy View Post
O/K just acquired this and although one Lug is missing the Font looks very much like the one Luke has posted, this one though looks Edwardian? and has the Firmin Oblong! Does this actually help date the Die?
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  #20  
Old 28-03-21, 01:41 PM
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Here you are Luke. I wouldn’t get too exited about it. It’s the one on the right in both photos. I’ve kept it as a reference for comparison with the only other two part badge I’ve come across for the white metal main badge and title scroll and the fact that the scrolls for the PoW motto are up, but don’t believe that it is right as the font is smaller than on other badges that I consider to be right and the metal is relatively thin. However, even on this one the cross does not extend above the fluer de lis.
Hwyl,
Kevin
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  #21  
Old 02-04-21, 08:05 PM
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Hi Kevin,

Many thanks. The POW feathers from that PY on the right are from the same die as the block font Welsh.

Note the flaws I’ve highlighted. Rather I suspect the overlay is slightly misaligned apparent on the right side of the coronet. Also note the jewel patterns. Cropping the image you can see the cross is higher than the fleur de lis.

There are a great many PY variations, Keith Hook who has been collecting Yeomanry since 1950 has one like it in his collection along with 13 other variations of their ORs badge. He also has the Cheshire Yeo shown earlier in his collection in both GM and bronzed. I do not doubt any of these Yeomanry badges originality. Also the Cheshire Yeo with said plumes is in the first edition Wilkinson and I do not know of any fake badge illustrated in that edition.

Personally I don’t think comparison with pre-1908 V.B. types of coronet is diagnostic. The badge is question post dates that period and encompasses a World War where we know very odd-ball, but completely original, variations arose e.g. the flat topped plumes again, no V.B. ever looked like that but as mentioned previously it spawned a whole series of wartime badges a few of which we have period photos of.

We also know from tenders that in 1916 the WO placed a large order for 4,000 Welsh Cyclists badges in bronzed GM. That is a significant number.

Due to the number seen I suspect the block font type badges may be this order (or part of) by a new wartime manufacturer. A slightly oddly proportioned coronet and font is in my belief nothing abnormal by WW1-era standards especially considering the other anomalies seen.

A new wartime manufacturer would also explain why the features you mention disliking are not seen on earlier badges.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one I think. Hopefully the constructive debate here and points put forward on both sides of the discussion will aid members making an informed decision on this type.

Hwyl,

Luke
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  #22  
Old 02-04-21, 08:12 PM
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In 2005 so many pristine block fonted BB welsh cyclist badges appeared in such numbers on ebay that the price dropped to £6. They were all identical and the paint work perfect and all popped up over a 6 month period.
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  #23  
Old 02-04-21, 08:21 PM
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And now not a single one has been seen for sale in over a year. Indeed I recall seeing very few like it in recent years. Suggests very strongly to me it’s not a new die pumping them out or the market would be awash with them by now, but that’s far from the case.

Perhaps, and more likely in my opinion, a box or batch of unissued badges was found and sold, now all gone and sat in collections.

From memory I recall batches or a box of LRB’s, the large HAC busby, LRDG stores all being found within my time in the hobby. It does happen.

P.S. If anyone has one of those £6 badges I’ll gladly double your money!

Last edited by Luke H; 02-04-21 at 09:33 PM. Reason: Sp
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  #24  
Old 02-04-21, 08:22 PM
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I am afraid that the 100 year old undiscovered box theory does not hold water with me. I had one of these and it was spanking new.

They were not seen before 2005 and then suddenly lots popped up in mint condition.

Last edited by Alan O; 02-04-21 at 08:29 PM.
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  #25  
Old 02-04-21, 08:43 PM
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Just to add to Lukeís list. 19th Surrey RV shako, 4th VB East Surrey glengarries were found unissued in the stores at The Duke of Yorkís in Kingís Road. Thereís also the looped Leinsterís found with protective wrapping.
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  #26  
Old 02-04-21, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan O View Post
I am afraid that the 100 year old undiscovered box theory does not hold water with me. I had one of these and it was spanking new.

They were not seen before 2005 and then suddenly lots popped up in mint condition.
A badge’s condition depends massively on storage conditions. I’ve several +100 year old badges in mint condition. I include in this some BB UHG badges I have in remarkable condition.

I’ve demonstrated the POW plumes used were certainly around in 1969 to be in Wilkinson’s book. Said plumes are not in my belief fake and don’t pop up with the run of the mill fake scrolls attached. The two Yeomanry badges they are found on aren’t common and they are not known fakes/restrikes.

Can you suggest a logical and more likely course of events which accounts for how a genuine POW plume was used in the construction of a glut of repros only appearing in 2005? Or if you deem the POW plumes fake them being used in the 1960s then seemingly not again until c.2005 when they were reproduced in large numbers but then clearly not again since?

Lastly the sliders appear uniform across all the badges with those POW plumes. Note the feint crimp mark, they are not typically repro in shape. It would be too remarkable a co-incidence for a new batch of modern repros to use the exact same and unusual slider as 45 years prior when it has not appeared on any other known repros in either that interim period or the time since.

I think it all ties in to a box/batch of unissued original badges.

The Welsh badge I’ve shown, in post #1, from the same die is definitely old.

Last edited by Luke H; 02-04-21 at 09:26 PM.
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  #27  
Old 19-04-21, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan O View Post
I am afraid that the 100 year old undiscovered box theory does not hold water with me. I had one of these and it was spanking new.

They were not seen before 2005 and then suddenly lots popped up in mint condition.


Not a box or quite 100 years but...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Relic-WW2...4f7c%7Ciid%3A1

Things do occasionally turn up.
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  #28  
Old 20-04-21, 03:32 PM
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Luke,

I'm not sure I would want to base my evidence on what is in Wilkinson. Welsh Guards Puggaree (198) for example, although I don't know within which edition this was first included. Errors are known to apply for both Gaylor and K & K. These authors simply did not have ready access to the huge data base that we have today and mistakes were made.

I have recently picked up a very good one piece blackened badge to the 7th Welsh, again with the small font. With regard to the 1916 order I have a few photographs of the unit in wartime which shew many of the men wearing both blackened and non-blackened badges in the same photos. As such I can see no evidence to suggest that if this order was produced that all the badges were then blackened.

As stated earlier this block font does not appear on any other period bimetal example, or for that matter the EI variant.

This is one we will have to disagree on and I will not be including any of the block font examples in my collection, other than for reference as what I consider to be a copy.

Hwyl,
Kevin
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  #29  
Old 09-05-21, 09:56 PM
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I wonder if someone has been reading this thread as I recall seeing such a badge (it may even have been the same one) listed previously and when pointed out on here in a thread by a Mod that its authenticity was in doubt it was pulled from eBay immediately.

Back again...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/393309554...fc3d%7Ciid%3A1

P.S. Kevin, I was referring to the first (1969) edition. There is no Welsh Guard puggaree badge in that edition and badge 198 is very nice KC East Lancashire Regt badge on a long slider. The later editions did have fakes but to my eyes and knowledge none are present in the first edition, it’s well worth picking a first edition up when cheap if only as a picture book.
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