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  #1  
Old 05-04-21, 03:32 AM
nbroadarrowz nbroadarrowz is offline
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Default Different PO cap badges

Hi to all,
These three PO badges came from the same estate.
Is the centre badge of the WW1 period?
Thanks
Barry
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  #2  
Old 05-04-21, 06:06 AM
Alex Rice Alex Rice is offline
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Hi Barry
As far as I am aware, the centre badge is an early CPO cap badge, I think they were in use up to WWI. The other two are post 1922 PO badges I think.
Cheers,
Alex
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  #3  
Old 05-04-21, 08:29 AM
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Frank Kelley Frank Kelley is offline
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That is a difficult question to actually answer unless you know the identity of it's original owner, but, it does appear to have some age to it, as well as a civil branch gilt crown.


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Originally Posted by nbroadarrowz View Post
Hi to all,
These three PO badges came from the same estate.
Is the centre badge of the WW1 period?
Thanks
Barry
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  #4  
Old 05-04-21, 09:09 PM
nbroadarrowz nbroadarrowz is offline
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Thanks for your thoughts. The items came with other WW2 NZ items and I suspect that by WW2 and being NZ, that all badges that looked alike were issued from a box and no one cared about the finer details of these cap badges.
So the badge in question is a CPO cap badge (civil branch)1903-1919 afterwards it was worn by PO. (reference Kit Muster page 50,83,).

This is another Civil branch CPO/PO cap badge that I have. Its construction is very similar to one of the other badges in the previous post.
Thanks
Barry
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  #5  
Old 06-04-21, 05:16 AM
Alex Rice Alex Rice is offline
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Sorry to disappoint but that badge is a later PO cap badge, not a civil branch CPO. The civil branch CPO, and all pre-wreath CPO badges should have a red jewel in the centre of the crown. I tend to associate the badges with the red embroidered 'cap' inside the crown, instead of velvet, as WWII.
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  #6  
Old 06-04-21, 10:27 AM
royston royston is offline
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The centre badge does look like a 1WW CPOs badge (Civil List), it has the right construction with the broad anchor, which I assume to be gold, and the back definitely looks 1WW The big debating point would be the colour of the centre "jewel" red or blue. If it is blue it could be just in that change over period 1921-22 when the colour of the "jewel" was standardised as blue. Although there is still debate on this forum about whether blue was used in the 1WW as well as red and was standardised in 1921.
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  #7  
Old 06-04-21, 10:53 PM
nbroadarrowz nbroadarrowz is offline
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I have read, studied and cross referenced the documents and the debate over red and blue central jewels before.
Unless I am missing something red and blue (central jewels) were both made until the early 1920's and then manufacturers were instructed to get it correct, so after this date only the correct blue (central) jewelled crowns were made.
I have a pre WW1 NAV badge with a central red jewel.
I am happy that the central badge in my first post is that of a pre 1919 CPO(civil branch).
Barry

Last edited by nbroadarrowz; 06-04-21 at 10:56 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #8  
Old 07-04-21, 07:12 AM
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The central badge in the original post appears to be from a manufacturer who has not added coloured jewels, I would have thought, from the photograph, that the anchor is certainly gold in colour.
I tend to be open minded regarding the central jewel colour on embroidered Tudor crowns, you also encounter many badges, from the various branches, upon caps with a red jewel that post date 1922.


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Originally Posted by royston View Post
The centre badge does look like a 1WW CPOs badge (Civil List), it has the right construction with the broad anchor, which I assume to be gold, and the back definitely looks 1WW The big debating point would be the colour of the centre "jewel" red or blue. If it is blue it could be just in that change over period 1921-22 when the colour of the "jewel" was standardised as blue. Although there is still debate on this forum about whether blue was used in the 1WW as well as red and was standardised in 1921.
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  #9  
Old 08-04-21, 06:22 AM
Alex Rice Alex Rice is offline
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Hi All
The red/blue jewel debate could go on with no definitive answer. There are a few threads going back where the topic is discussed. I have a few early, ie: pre-wreath CPO badges as well as a couple of early wreathed CPO badges, all with red jewels. I would not believe a blue-jeweled badge was pre-1922 unless it had cast iron provenance and I haven't seen one I would consider to be that old. The one common thing I have seen on ALL the ealry CPO badges is that the rope circle has a thick ring on the outer 'rope', and the inner one is narrower. All the later PO badges seem to have rope rings which are the same thickness.
That is one of the pointers I have used to try and date the badges. I don't know if it is right, just my opinion.
Cheers,
Alex

Last edited by Alex Rice; 08-04-21 at 06:28 AM.
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  #10  
Old 08-04-21, 01:54 PM
Alex Rice Alex Rice is offline
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Some of my badges to highlight my point above.
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File Type: jpg 160.jpg (97.2 KB, 31 views)
File Type: jpg CPO ERA pre-1920.jpg (67.8 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg 149.jpg (68.9 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg ERA CPO 1.jpg (40.6 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg 150.jpg (101.9 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg PO 1.jpg (69.7 KB, 12 views)
File Type: jpg PO 2.jpg (62.4 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg 002.jpg (68.9 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg CPO Early 1920s.JPG (93.3 KB, 15 views)
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  #11  
Old 09-04-21, 09:02 PM
nbroadarrowz nbroadarrowz is offline
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Badge comparison.
Same maker, same threaded cushion, different coloured anchors.
To me the colour of the central jewel is a manufacturer's variation as the official colour is blue.
Barry
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  #12  
Old 10-04-21, 06:05 AM
Alex Rice Alex Rice is offline
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Hi Barry
Thanks for posting. I still, unfortunately, don't consider the left badge a civil branch badge, the crown still has a silver wire 'brow' which should be gold wire as with the civil branch engineering CPO badge which I posted.
Cheers,
Alex
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  #13  
Old 18-04-21, 07:05 AM
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Frank Kelley Frank Kelley is offline
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I particularly like your first example with the purple velvet cushion to the reverse of the gilt anchor.


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Some of my badges to highlight my point above.
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  #14  
Old 22-04-21, 11:41 PM
cbuehler cbuehler is online now
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The purple velvet badge was originally dark blue which has changed over time, which is common to velvet.
I have ( and have seen) several bullion badges, not just these CPO, with originally dark blue velvet portions that exhibit this change. I too like this.

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Last edited by cbuehler; 22-04-21 at 11:47 PM.
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  #15  
Old 23-04-21, 08:36 AM
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Frank Kelley Frank Kelley is offline
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From the photograph, I would thought the badge is an Engineering branch example as they wore purple and it looks to be is truly superb condition for its age, the other various civil branch wore just a gilt anchor.


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Originally Posted by cbuehler View Post
The purple velvet badge was originally dark blue which has changed over time, which is common to velvet.
I have ( and have seen) several bullion badges, not just these CPO, with originally dark blue velvet portions that exhibit this change. I too like this.

CB
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