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  #1  
Old 03-11-16, 05:11 PM
CollectorinUSA CollectorinUSA is offline
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Default Princess Louises Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders shoulder belt plate

Hello one and all!

A question to the more experienced members regarding the Princess Louises Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders shoulder belt plate badge:

Why is the cat-a-mountain (wild cat) that's on the right side of the badge, sometimes staring straight ahead (to the left as you look at the badge) and sometimes I find the cat on some badges staring right at me?

See the two photos below for an example of cat staring straight ahead, or staring at you.

Does this have to do with the age of the badge? Maybe the badge just changed over the years?

This has bugged me for a long time and I can't seem to find an answer!

Cheers!
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File Type: jpg Beltplate3.jpg (11.7 KB, 82 views)
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  #2  
Old 03-11-16, 06:52 PM
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fougasse1940 fougasse1940 is offline
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There are also various different cats on the cap badge, which I believe is just a question of maker variations.

Rgds, Thomas.
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  #3  
Old 03-11-16, 07:43 PM
CollectorinUSA CollectorinUSA is offline
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Originally Posted by fougasse1940 View Post
There are also various different cats on the cap badge, which I believe is just a question of maker variations.

Rgds, Thomas.
Cheers, appreciate the thought, but it would seem a bit odd that they don't keep the design the same. I was thinking it may be down to the age of the badge. I guess that also begs the question of, how can one tell how old this plate is? In other words, other than the shape of a crown, how can you tell if a badge or belt plate is Victorian or later?
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  #4  
Old 03-11-16, 11:18 PM
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fougasse1940 fougasse1940 is offline
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Obviously the plate is from after 1881. Since the crown is H.R.H. the Princess Louise, Marchioness of Lorne's coronet, it won't help you with establishing age as with QVC, KC or QC's. The description in Parkyn's '(Military) Shoulder-Belt Plates and Buttons' unfortunately doesn't mention different cats.

The heraldical description of the crest of the Earldom of Sutherland describes the cat as 'a cat-a mountain sejant (seated) rampant proper (raised body and position of front legs)'. If the cat would have been looking at the viewer it would have been described as 'sejant rampant guardant', so the cat looking ahead is heraldically coorect.

Rgds, Thomas.

Last edited by fougasse1940; 03-11-16 at 11:30 PM.
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  #5  
Old 28-03-21, 09:33 PM
CollectorinUSA CollectorinUSA is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CollectorinUSA View Post
Hello one and all!

A question to the more experienced members regarding the Princess Louises Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders shoulder belt plate badge:

Why is the cat-a-mountain (wild cat) that's on the right side of the badge, sometimes staring straight ahead (to the left as you look at the badge) and sometimes I find the cat on some badges staring right at me?

See the two photos below for an example of cat staring straight ahead, or staring at you.

Does this have to do with the age of the badge? Maybe the badge just changed over the years?

This has bugged me for a long time and I can't seem to find an answer!

Cheers!

Just thought I'd try my question again, in case any members of the forum have gleaned additional information on these belt plates.

Why is the cat-a-mountain (wild cat) that's on the right side of the badge, sometimes staring to the left (as you look at the plate) and sometimes straight ahead at you? Is this related to the time period when the plate was made? Cheers
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Old 28-03-21, 11:27 PM
cbuehler cbuehler is offline
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Your are trying to make too much of the cat. It is all just a matter of makers variations with the possible exception of the tail being up or down.
The orientation of the face has no other significance than that.
Both plates are 20th century with the South Africa honour, but narrowing it further than that is impossible.

CB
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  #7  
Old 05-04-21, 01:40 AM
CollectorinUSA CollectorinUSA is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbuehler View Post
Your are trying to make too much of the cat. It is all just a matter of makers variations with the possible exception of the tail being up or down.
The orientation of the face has no other significance than that.
Both plates are 20th century with the South Africa honour, but narrowing it further than that is impossible.

CB
Thanks for taking a look. I don't agree - I just don't think that the different manufacturers would vary the regimental badge specific attributes in this way. You're talking about very long-held traditions, and (I just don't think) they would just change them willy-nilly.
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Old 05-04-21, 07:49 AM
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Fat cats, thin cats, cats facing their front, cats facing their left, cats with tails down, cats with tails up, cats with no tails, all found on the various insignia for headress, collar etc.
Are they also indicative of specific, deliberate changes in design or as generally accepted, merely minor detail varying from manufacturer to manufacturer over many decades?
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Old 05-04-21, 07:57 AM
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I would think that variation of minor details can only be put down to the interpretation of the basic design by the many manufacturers who received orders for badges and accoutrements for the regiment during the period it was extant.


Quote:
Originally Posted by leigh kitchen View Post
Fat cats, thin cats, cats facing their front, cats facing their left, cats with tails down, cats with tails up, cats with no tails, all found on the various insignia for headress, collar etc.
Are they also indicative of specific, deliberate changes in design or as generally accepted, merely minor detail varying from manufacturer to manufacturer over many decades?
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  #10  
Old 05-04-21, 08:20 AM
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That's the view I've always taken in the absence of any evidence to the contrary.
Photographic evidence may indicate a date such a variation is in wear but still doesn't indicate that it's other than a manufacturer's variation.
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  #11  
Old 05-04-21, 08:46 AM
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Long held traditions were and remain important, but, nothing significant changes with these plates, when a particular manufacturer makes a set of dies to produce badges and accoutrements, he has to work within the parameters he is given by a particular regiment or the then War Office.
A particular individual engravers interpretation of a Cat, for example, will not be the same as another individual, but, as long as the Cat is present within the die, all is well, you are talking about very small details and not about any major design or heraldic changes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CollectorinUSA View Post
Thanks for taking a look. I don't agree - I just don't think that the different manufacturers would vary the regimental badge specific attributes in this way. You're talking about very long-held traditions, and (I just don't think) they would just change them willy-nilly.
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  #12  
Old 05-04-21, 09:04 AM
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There are several variants of the cat and the way it is facing and where the tail is on the A&SH buttons.

Chris
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