25 Army Tk Bde - Page 2 - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Mike Jackson · #16 28-04-13, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plang876

Hi Mike,
Just going back over some of my notes. Originally gleaned from Ron Addymans book '51 RTR, Morley, Tunisia, Italy'.
Googling 'Ronald Addyman: Responses:Royal Tank Regiment. para 5 is where I probably got the misleading info that RDY were 'part' of 25th Tk Bde. as opposed to 'in support of'. A small but obviously important distinction.

Paddy

In general RA units were not an element of Armd, Tk or Inf Bdes in WW2. The inclusion of non RAC and/or Inf elements within a Bde usually resulted in the formation being redesignated a Brigade Group (Bde Gp) eg 23 Armd Bde Gp for periods in 1942, 1944 and 1945. This may have been for only a short period eg 1 RHA was embodied in 3 Armd Bde Gp for just six weeks in 1941. 147 Fd Regt was attached from Second Army to 8 Armd Bde for the month of Nov 44. And the Para Bde Gps and Air Landing (AL) Bde Gps had artillery elements embodied within their order of battle. But these were the exceptions.

badjez · #17 29-04-13, 06:55 AM

Mike,

Thanks for posting the 142 Regt photo.
Please can I enquire if the slip-on title was in regimental colours and if any other title was worn on it (RAC?).
Is there any evidence of cap badges being altered unofficially to WM or chromed?

Thanks, Stephen.

Mike Jackson · #18 29-04-13, 09:08 AM

As stated, the 142 Regt RAC shoulder strap flash was in Suffolk's colours of red and yellow. I have no firm evidence, but most conversions to Regts RAC that opted to wear the regimental badge tried to procure one in white metal - it looked better on a black beret. The one photograph I have seen of a Tpr in 142 Regt RAC appears to show a wm badge. I thought on the image that I posted there was some small device on the shoulder strap, but it may be a scratch on the negative. I don't think it's a brass RAC title.
The War Office had ruled that any converted infantry battalion which did not exist prior to the outbreak of war in 1939 must drop its infantry title entirely and cease to wear the cap badge of its former regiment. This ruling was challenged by 150 Regt RAC (formerly 10 Y&L) and in 1944 the ruling was reversed. Thus 150 Regt RAC became, officially, 150 Regt RAC (York and Lancaster) and reverted to wearing its "Tiger and Rose" cap badge (extract from regimental history).

fearnaught · #19 01-05-13, 07:42 PM

Hi, some pics of 51st RTR, the uniform belonged to a Suffolk who transfered to 51st RTR. The others show various shades of green which often faded to yellow, and a Suffolk flash, Mike

Mike Jackson · #20 01-05-13, 07:44 PM

Outstanding. A superb BD blouse. Thanks very much for posting the images.
Mike

plang876 · #21 01-05-13, 08:48 PM

Fascinating!

I posted a thread on 'WW2Talk' forum asking whether anyone can give a definitive answer on why RTR Assoc lists the colours of 45 RTR (raised 1938 from Leeds Rifles) as Black/Green with horizontal yellow Stripe and 51 RTR (raised 1939, Leeds Rifles) as Black/GREY.
Obviously Black/GREEN was the order worn - if that's because they're Rifle Bde colours how come 45 RTR didn't get precedence? Is there any reason why 51 RTR dosn't comply with the info on RTR Assocs website (or is it a typo?).

Minor point but I'm curious.

fearnaught · #22 01-05-13, 09:27 PM

Hi, Bovington's board shows green/black, Brian Davies in his book,1983 says green/black but Martin Windrow in1979 says green/black or grey/black with the proviso "in some cases written and pictorial records at RTR HQ differ" so I assume the discrepancy came from RTR HQ. Maybe someone used actual uniforms for the details which, as can be seen from the 51st RTR examples, is maybe not the best route to go, hope this helps, Mike

plang876 · #23 01-05-13, 09:55 PM

The simplest answer certainly makes sense.

Another daft question is whether there was a directive on which way the colour strips went (or just guessing that so long as everyone wore the appointed colours the same way that would comply with uniformity!)

Should you be interested, I have a 142 RAC nominal roll of which personnel went to which units when it disbanded in Dec 1944.
Of only 14 named personnel who went directly to 51st RTR (many went to RAC Trg Depot so could have been posted later) there's only 1 SNCO, W/Sgt Fuller.D - don't know whether that may comply with any provenance you may already have.

Regards, Paddy

chief_chum · #24 01-05-13, 10:46 PM

"Please can I enquire if the slip-on title was in regimental colours and if any other title was worn on it (RAC?).
Is there any evidence of cap badges being altered unofficially to WM or chromed?
Thanks, Stephen."

Hi Stephen,

All the 7/Suffolk-142 veterans I interviewed or spoke to were adamant that they wore the standard bi-metal badges (except the Officers who wore silver).
I have the original beret of the driver of a Churchill who was wounded in North Africa and it certainly has a normal badge.

The slip-on insignia worn on the KD shirts is exactly as in the example shown. On BD
the red and yellow tapes were worn at the end of the shoulder straps.

Cheers,

Taff

chief_chum · #25 01-05-13, 10:49 PM

Mike,

Is there any chance of seeing the whole of your 142 Regiment photograph?

Best wishes,

Taff

badjez · #26 02-05-13, 06:55 AM

Taff & Mike, thanks for your help.

Stephen.

Old Smelly · #27 02-05-13, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plang876

Fascinating!

I posted a thread on 'WW2Talk' forum asking whether anyone can give a definitive answer on why RTR Assoc lists the colours of 45 RTR (raised 1938 from Leeds Rifles) as Black/Green with horizontal yellow Stripe and 51 RTR (raised 1939, Leeds Rifles) as Black/GREY.
Obviously Black/GREEN was the order worn - if that's because they're Rifle Bde colours how come 45 RTR didn't get precedence? Is there any reason why 51 RTR dosn't comply with the info on RTR Assocs website (or is it a typo?).

Minor point but I'm curious.

Re 51RTR. Could be a typo or possibly the fact that ones on the BD shown have faded a bit and has been mis-identified as grey. The ones I have seen are definitely green/black
Lee

That is a very nice BD!

Old Smelly · #28 02-05-13, 07:21 AM

Just remembered that I had these pics of what I believe are men of 51RTR. They are wearing the slip-on on their battledress much like the one in the pic above.
Lee

plang876 · #29 02-05-13, 09:30 AM

Very impressed with the the wealth of photo evidence of the insignia and personnel who wore them.

As I mentioned in my New Member Intro I'm doing some amateur research into the above units as my father became part of the same formation later on in 1945.

I'm sure many members here may also be aware of 'ww2talk forum' where there are some veterans of 25th Tank Bde (and other formations) who provide great background and assistance in identifying places and faces.

Regards, Paddy

fearnaught · #30 02-05-13, 11:19 AM

Hi Plang 876, in your list of 142 RAC does it mention an E H Mellor as he ended up in the 6th AARR and he had a pair of the 142 RAC flashes in his tin of bits. He originally started in the Lancashire Fusiliers, became armoured in 42nd Div then appears to have been posted on to 142 RAC, somewhere along the line he got to be a Captain thanks in advance Mike