TF Bns. post 1908 - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

CftD · #1 17-09-11, 11:59 PM

Many threads on the Forum seem to ask the same old questions about Territorial Force Bns., and there relationship to regular bns. Perhaps it is well to remember that regular bns. occupied 1st and 2nd status with Militia bns. following - 3rd, sometimes 3rd and 4th. Territorial force bns. followed on - T4, T5, T6, T7, T8 and so on. WW1 produced further bns. - T9 and onwards. The collector should, I suggest, develop a clear understanding of the general format of Infantry regiments - regulars, militia, territorial and so on. Perrhaps newer Forum members might find this formula of use. David

BILL DUGGAN · #2 18-09-11, 12:15 AM

Has this anything to do with badges ?

ebro · #3 18-09-11, 12:21 AM

Bill,
I think it has to do with badges due to the quantity of questions about titles.
I think understanding the structure helps understand some badges.

Eddie

CftD · #4 18-09-11, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebro

Bill,
I think it has to do with badges due to the quantity of questions about titles.
I think understanding the structure helps understand some badges.

Eddie

Thank you, Eddie - I believe you have hit the nail firmly on the head ! David

BILL DUGGAN · #5 18-09-11, 12:46 AM

What about regiments that had 4 regular battalions at the time of the Boer War.

The Royal Fusiliers, The Royal Warwicks and The Lancashire Fusiliers had four regular battalions at that time.

I think you'll find that they were used as Mounted Infantry battalions. These were Regular battalions that had nothing to do with being militia or reserve battalions.

The mounted infantry was the elite of the British Army at that time and were very skilled and highly trained to combat the Boer commando's.

I get a bit peeved at modern day amateur historians dismissing these elite battalions as militia / reserve units. They should be given the respect and remembrance that they deserve.

ebro · #6 18-09-11, 01:17 AM

Bill,

Your question in post2 was " Has this anything to do with badges ? "
And my answer was, and is still, yes it has!
I am not arguing about other situations, but most of the Title questions relate to post 1908, therfore the information may well help some members.
I agree with Ry.when he says "Nice to see something positive this evening".

Eddie

Graham Stewart · #7 22-09-11, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BILL DUGGAN

What about regiments that had 4 regular battalions at the time of the Boer War.

The Royal Fusiliers, The Royal Warwicks and The Lancashire Fusiliers had four regular battalions at that time.

I think you'll find that they were used as Mounted Infantry battalions. These were Regular battalions that had nothing to do with being militia or reserve battalions.

The mounted infantry was the elite of the British Army at that time and were very skilled and highly trained to combat the Boer commando's.

I get a bit peeved at modern day amateur historians dismissing these elite battalions as militia / reserve units. They should be given the respect and remembrance that they deserve.

Brief Histories of the 3rd & 4th Bn's, Royal Fusiliers. From what I gather neither served in South Africa as complete M.I. Battalions until 1906. Both the 1st & 2nd Bn's, R.F. had M.I. company's prior to the S.A. War, as did the rest of the Infantry and generally these companies were grouped together to form Mounted Infantry Battalions. Fredericks' Book, as mentioned, does infact list all(?) of the M.I. Battalions and companies which formed them for the S.A. War.

These M.I. Battalions in general were much smaller than the standard infantry battalion and were composed of four companies. Prior to the S.A. War the companies usually consisted of less than 40 all ranks, but would have expanded to "War Establishment" on the beginning of hostilities. This would have included the recalling of reservists, who were M.I. trained.

The Northumberland Fusiliers were also extended to a 3rd & 4th regular battalions, which didn't see service in S.A. until almost the end.

3rd.BATTALION, ROYAL FUSILIERS
1898 - 1922
1898 April 1st. Raised from Nucleus of 2 Companies from 2nd.Battalion at The Curragh
Camp + 1 Company of Reservists
April 5th. Aldershot - Formed into 6 Companies
June Grand Shaft Barracks,Dover
December 9th. Malta
1899 January 1st. Fort Mandel,Malta
August 31st. Casmates Barracks, Gibralter
1900 January 30th. Personnel from 3rd.Battalion form nucleus for 4th. Battalion
1902 May 28th. Alexandria
May 29th. Citadel Barracks,Cairo
November 14th. Right Half Battalion to Khartoum
1903 April 11th. Left Half Battalion to Cairo
July 29th. Citadel Camp,Mena
October 17-19th.Khartoum
1904 Bermuda
1906 South Africa
December 1st. No's.1,2,3,4,Companies form 6th.Battn.Mounted Infantry
1907 Middleburgh South Africa
1908 Pretoria
1909 Pietermaritzburg
1910-11 Mauritius
1912 Chakrata
3RF continued
FIRST WORLD WAR 1914-1919
1914 August 4th. Lucknow
December England
1915 January FRANCE YPRES,LOOS
October EGYPT
December MACEDONIA
1918 July GREECE
FRANCE HINDENBERG LINE,SELLE,SAMBRE
1920 Danzig
1921 England - Bordon Camp
Ireland
1922 July 16th. Aldershot DISBANDED
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4th.BATTALION, ROYAL FUSILIERS
1900 - 1922
1900 January 30th. Raised from nucleus of 3rd.Battalion Royal Fusiliers
February 8th. Dover
June 30th. Lydd
September 27th. Battalion HQ Dover
1901 March 16th. Mounted Infantry Company [later 20th.Battn.Mounted Infantry]
formed and proceeded to South Africa
April 15th. Battalion H.Q Shorncliffe
1902 May Battalion HQ Woolwich
July Battalion HQ HM Tower of London
October 4th. Battalion HQ Cambridge Barracks Woolwich
1905-06 Dublin
1907 Mullingar
1910-11 Aldershot
1913 Parkhurst Isle of Wight
FIRST WORLD WAR 1914 -1919
1914 August 13th. Le Havre
MONS -LE CATEAU -MARNE -AISNE -MESSINES-
ARMENTIERES - YPRES
1915 HOOGE -
1916 SOMME
1917 ARRAS - YPRES
1918 SOMME - LYS - HINDENBURG LINE - SELLE
1919 IRAQ
1921 March 25th. Jullundur,India
1922 July 16th. Aldershot DISBANDED

Charlie585 · #8 18-09-11, 12:29 AM

It has everything to do with badges in my opinion.

Good, useful information that may be of benefit to the unititiated is always welcome.

Nice to see something positive this evening, to make up for the continued picking away at old wounds that most of us have had enough of by now.

Let's not forget that there is more to be had from the forum than just being able to spot a bad badge, important as that is.

Regards to ALL.

Ry

CftD · #9 18-09-11, 12:35 AM

Ry - My original post was an attempt to stop the continual, repetitive, almost eternal questions about the same - the very same - thing. I doubt it will. Regards. David

CftD · #10 18-09-11, 12:23 AM

Bill - I rather suspect that it does as regular, militia and territorial force badges within the same line infantry regiment are different - but are rarely co-related by many who collect. Combinations of metals, different designs and obscure Irish/Scottish connections often come into play - factors not always understood or appreciated by those who post questions on the Forum. I offer the fundemental information as education - worthy, in my view, of further research, perhaps before asking questions. Research is everything - or do I mean self-education ? David

bewley · #11 18-09-11, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BILL DUGGAN

Has this anything to do with badges ?

Bill
I think it probably has more to do with the authors aim of the fastest member to reach the 1,000 posts mark!
BB

Peter Brydon · #12 19-09-11, 08:00 AM

Whilst not wishing to do anything to anything to change this thread into one of the rows for which this Forum is becoming famous,the study of lineage is an important aspect ( in my opinion ) of badge collecting.

Not only does it make it easier to put a date to an item but I seem to recall a Volunteer Battalion badge being identified as a spurious item because when someone checked it out the regiment in question never had a V.B. with that number.

It does seem to me the more you know about the history of the unit that wore a particular badge the more interesting the subject becomes.

The attached is something I put together from various sources to not only help date Liverpool Volunteer and Territorial badges but to understand how the various Rifle Volunteer units became Volunteer battalions and later Territorial Battalions.

P.B.

BILL DUGGAN · #13 19-09-11, 08:44 AM

I am now finding this thread interesting and educational.

At the top; the initial posting by CFtD stated that "the 1st & 2nd battalions were regular forces and the 3rd and sometimes 4th were militia/reserve battalions"

I've seen this over simplistic obseration posted on other websites that I visit and I can't help but respond to it.

All, or most of the above postings have highlighted how complicated this subject can be. Brilliant !

Regards N.F. shoulder titles, two points, firstly, isn't it in the Guiness book of Records that N.F. had 80 or so battalions ? (has anyone got a T/79/grenade/NF title?)..........(you silly boy !)

Secondly, didn't the Northern Cyclists also have a N/C title and wasn't there also the T/S title ?

grumpy · #14 19-09-11, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BILL DUGGAN

I am now finding this thread interesting and educational.

At the top; the initial posting by CFtD stated that "the 1st & 2nd battalions were regular forces and the 3rd and sometimes 4th were militia/reserve battalions"

I've seen this over simplistic obseration posted on other websites that I visit and I can't help but respond to it.

All, or most of the above postings have highlighted how complicated this subject can be. Brilliant !

Regards N.F. shoulder titles, two points, firstly, isn't it in the Guiness book of Records that N.F. had 80 or so battalions ? (has anyone got a T/79/grenade/NF title?)..........(you silly boy !)

Secondly, didn't the Northern Cyclists also have a N/C title and wasn't there also the T/S title ?

I use Brigadier James's book for such matters, although the RWF dispute his total for their regiment.
Including transient units, and garrison battalions and whatever, NF weigh in at about 50 units.
The authority is probably Graham Stewart.

REMEVMBEA1 · #15 19-09-11, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BILL DUGGAN

I am now finding this thread interesting and educational.

At the top; the initial posting by CFtD stated that "the 1st & 2nd battalions were regular forces and the 3rd and sometimes 4th were militia/reserve battalions"

I've seen this over simplistic obseration posted on other websites that I visit and I can't help but respond to it.

All, or most of the above postings have highlighted how complicated this subject can be. Brilliant !

Regards N.F. shoulder titles, two points, firstly, isn't it in the Guiness book of Records that N.F. had 80 or so battalions ? (has anyone got a T/79/grenade/NF title?)..........(you silly boy !)

Secondly, didn't the Northern Cyclists also have a N/C title and wasn't there also the T/S title ?

My late grandfather (Taed) was a member of the 47rd Provisional battalion having previously (I think) being a member of the Denbighshire Yeomanry but his gravestone in the Llangollen Welsh churchyard shows him as being in the RWF. I once enquired about his service record from the RWF museum and received a reply that there was no such thing as a 23rd Provisional Battalion which seems to show that even experts can be wrong.