North Staffordshire anodised cap badge

[Alan O]

Major Edwards book Edition 4 from 1966 records that the South Staffs 5th/6th Bm and the North Staffs 5th Bns were both wearing the 'old' pattern badges. The Regular Bn were wearing Brigade badges.

He does not state whether they were a/a or metal for ORs. Both were clearly still in use after the a/a sealed dates so I think you can deduce that the a/a badges were worn by the TA.

The next edition I have access to is the 7th from 1974 by which time both Bns are gone but a single company remains in the Mercians wearing their eagle. This edition states that the 5/6th Bn had worn the staffordshire knot prior to this (clealry after Edn 4 in 1966) and this is the earliest record I can find of this.

[dragonz18]

Hi all,
I have 2 editions of Edwards' book. the 1st edition 1951 & 5th revised edition 1968. If there are ever any questions that these can help with, just ask/PM, etc.
Re Staffords from 5th edition.......
Regulars-
Headress .... Mercian Brigade
Collars.... combined unit style on brown 'Holland' material
These are Officer's Badges,it seems? ie: silver plate & gilt (O/R's versions not indicated here)
Glider arm badges for O/R's are listed (3 types)as from 1950

Territorials-
5/6th batn. A Co. (Souths),B Co. (Souths), C Co. (Norths)
Headress....Staffordshire knot in gold anodised (no crown)
Collars.... as for regulars (above)
notes.... 'former' badges are shown as the older(normal) patterns at this date.

Cheers !
Steve

[Mike_2817]

Originally Posted by hagwalther

Hi Alan,

The CCN entry of 1963 was under Regular Infantry of the Line and not Territorial Army. This could be a carry over from a previous CCN document though but it does very much imply that the badge was at some stage issued to The North Staffordshire Regiment as a regular unit.

Regards

Chris

I would not draw any conclusion from where it is listed, as errors abound in CCN/COSA entries, and badges may well be for issue to the TA or ACF/CCF after a regular regiment was disbanded, and be list still as regular.

Nor would I assume that badges were only made by the company whose badge was used on the Sealed Pattern, as it is often the case that more than company was invited to tender, or even produced a speculative small batch. This of course makes it harder to pin down exact numbers of producers for any one badge design.

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Mike_2817

I would not draw any conclusion from where it is listed, as errors abound in CCN/COSA entries, and badges may well be for issue to the TA or ACF/CCF after a regular regiment was disbanded, and be list still as regular.

Nor would I assume that badges were only made by the company whose badge was used on the Sealed Pattern, as it is often the case that more than company was invited to tender, or even produced a speculative small batch. This of course makes it harder to pin down exact numbers of producers for any one badge design.

Hi Mike,

With all the information I post on the forum here in reference to specific badges I only go as far as stating that the badges were officially authorised for issue.

Whether they actually were or not is very difficult to establish or even if they were even made and as such, I tend to keep away from making such statements such as the North Staffordshire Regiment was issued an A/A badge. They might have been but I have no idea and I suggest that few other do either. As suggested, they probably ended up in the TA battalion or the local cadets but I don't know as I have not seen any official documentation recording such tansactions. For all I know they were never even used and just sold off to a dealer for disposal for people like me to buy but remember that they were officially authorised for issue which is what I base my collection on.

I fully agree with your second statement re: sealed pattern cards. At times the company who made the prototypes for the pattern cards did not recieve the bulk production contract. I forget an example of this badge but the companies involved were Firmin and Gaunt and if I get time I see if I can find this example. Of course, as time went on different companies picked up renewal contacts to produce and they would have cut different dies to do so hence the difference in these badges from the pattern cards.

A lot of references to books such as Edwards, Kipling and King consist of line drawings of badges or pretty shocking photographic reproductions. Seldom is any information referenced back to original sources and quite honestly the academic value of books such as these is therefore limited when one questions the authenticity of the information printed in them. Show these books to someone outside the hobby and they may well remark the that the contents could be nothing more than total fabrications as there is no way of referencing the information contained in them back to the original sources to prove.

Experience amongst collectors however should in most cases give a concensous of accuracy but just because it says so in Kipling and King or Edwards is that really good enough. Are their writings based on tedious study and if so what was that study? What documents did they use? What was the validity of these documents or is all or partly based on heresay? Why is this information not given with the books?

With reference to the 5th/6th Bt of the Staffordshire Regt A/A cap badge.

This was mooted and informally authorised for issue i.e. the War Office Dress Committee went through the procurement process upto a point. However, the contract to bulk produce was cancelled and the document that this is stated on is known as:

AMALGAMATED REGIMENTS THAT DO NOT HAVE A REGIMENTAL CAP BADGE

Undated but believed to be in 1968 looking at other correspondance to the left and right of the placement of this document in the file.

Document Labelled - E162

File - Reorganisation of The Territorial Army WO32 20559 - WO32/20559

Location - National Archives, Kew, England.

As recorded in a previous thread - this badge in A/A was sold a couple of years back at Bosley's for 600 quid. Now, if you are going to spend that sort of money are you going to believe Edwards et al or official documents in the National Archives? I know what I'm going to do and the money stays in my pocket.

Regards

Chris

[Alan O]

Chris,

Interestingly Edwards was dead by the 1970s editions and it was Hugh King, who had the cast anodised (but not aluminium) 5/6th badge in his collection who did the revision. Either the cast knot badge was unofficially made and worn by the cadre of the 5/6th or he was sold a pup and then perpetuated this fallacy in the book.

Alan

[Mike H]

Somebody had one on the forum a while ago that they bought from an auction house.Although it was described as a/a,when asked the dealer said that i was an early type badge.Its certainly heavier than a normal a/a badge.Im sure the images were posted.
I remember a conversation i had with a local dealer to me,he said that he only only ever had 1 and it wasnt made from anodised aluminium.This ties in with what was said in a previous post reference this badge.

[grey_green_acorn]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Chris,

Interestingly Edwards was dead by the 1970s editions and it was Hugh King, who had the cast anodised (but not aluminium) 5/6th badge in his collection who did the revision. Either the cast knot badge was unofficially made and worn by the cadre of the 5/6th or he was sold a pup and then perpetuated this fallacy in the book.

Alan

Surely it was Arthur Kipling (Hugh King's partner in K&K) who revised the late Major Edwards 4th Edition (1966), 5th Edition (1968) which refers to the gold anodised knot of 5/6 Staffords and also the 6th Edition (1974) which perpetuates the apparent "myth".

As a general comment, you only have to consider the various and sometimes contradictory opinions and occassionally mistaken information offered in good faith in this forum to realise that it is no surprise that there are (some) errors and ommissions in, what were at the time ground breaking, books by John Gaylor, Hugh King et al! After all in their day there were no computers or databases but many more people who might actually have worn the badges and were able to provide primary documentary or anecdotal information!

[hagwalther]

Hi Guys,

Here is some more information on the Staffordshire knot and the 5th/6th Battn dated 25th July 1969.

Again, taken form official correspondence in the National Archives, Kew.

It's a poor image when looked at via the forum I'm afraid but it says as item 1:

1. Regarding the design of the proposed collar badge (which was a single Staffordshire knot), a similar proposal by the 5th/6th Battalion, The Staffordshire Regiment to adopt a plain Staffordshire knot as a cap badge was rejected by Garter Principal King of Arms on the grounds that possessors of Armourial devices have no power in law to authorise others to use them, this being the right reserved to the crown, exercised only in peculiar circumstances.

It goes on to say that the knot with something else was OK, refer matter back to The Staffordshire Regiment for another think but remember that it will need to be approved by Garter Principal King of Arms before advancing.

If this does not conclude the issue on dodgy anodised aluminium 5th/6th Battn Staffordshire Regiment badges then I fear nothing will...

Regards

Chris

[dak580]

Guys

Thought you might like to see this picture

[54Bty]

Could it be a collar badge that they are wearing in the beret?

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by 54Bty

Could it be a collar badge that they are wearing in the beret?

Hi 54Bty,

The collar badge as a Staffordshire Knot in A/A was knocked back in the late 1960's and early 1970's three times by the Garter King of Arms.

Whatever these guys are wearing it is not an officially authorised for issued A/A badge it's as simple as that. I have even provided the details of the documents where the contract was cancelled and I believe this was even before the dies were made as other units on the cancelled list are noted on a separate document as getting as far as manufacturing samples. The 5th/6th Battn Staffordshire Regt entry does not contain this extra information.

Regards

Chris

[54Bty]

I do not have these then, white metal, and aa silver? Both are a pair of collar badges that came through the MoD system many years ago.

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by 54Bty

I do not have these then, white metal, and aa silver? Both are a pair of collar badges that came through the MoD system many years ago.

Hi 54Bty,

When did you actually get these?

I have copies of documents that state three times during the 1960's and 1970's quite categorically that these single knot Staffordshire Regt. were NOT to be authorised. This relates to the creation of the Staffordshire Regt A/A badge which was deemed to be too close to the previous North Staffordshire badge and that the South Staffordshires needed to be represented. The proposal was for the knot to be used by itself to show the South Staffordshire affiliation.

As I said, these collar tabs were rejected three times with the explicit comment that the Army Dress Committee would not authorised anything not approved by the H.M. The Queen and that she would not appprove anything not approved by the Garter King of Arms and the Garter King of Arms refused this design on multiple occasions.

As such, I can only assume that that these collar tabs were not officially authorised for issue as all the official documentation states that they were not of a suitable design as per the 5th/6th Battn cap badge.

Regards

Chris

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by 54Bty

I do not have these then, white metal, and aa silver? Both are a pair of collar badges that came through the MoD system many years ago.

Hi 54Bty,

Can you provide reverse view shots of one of the A/A collar badges and also an angled close up shot of one of the lugs. I would like to see who made these items and possibly put a date of manufacture to them.

Regards

Chris

[54Bty]

Originally Posted by hagwalther

Hi 54Bty,

Can you provide reverse view shots of one of the A/A collar badges and also an angled close up shot of one of the lugs. I would like to see who made these items and possibly put a date of manufacture to them.

Regards

Chris

I will get round to the pictures later. In the mean time from Colin Churchill's book 'History of the British Army Infantry Collar Badge' Stafford Knot in white metal worn from 1949 to amalgamation, pattern number 14033, sealed 6th December 1948. Silver aa pattern number 19230, sealed 23rd January 1964 (auth 54/Inf/8522) worn by 5th Bn.

Mine fell from the store shelf in 1992.