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  #106  
Old 09-01-18, 08:34 PM
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So, in effect, what is being said is that the GAUNT LONDON mark was utilised by Gaunt concurrently with production of genuine and restrike buttons. In other words, the flawed letters and bluish/green finish were used for both. As Roger nicely puts it, obvious 'out of period' buttons are restrikes - no argument about it; but 'in period' buttons are fair game.

GTB
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  #107  
Old 10-01-18, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTB View Post
So, in effect, what is being said is that the GAUNT LONDON mark was utilised by Gaunt concurrently with production of genuine and restrike buttons. In other words, the flawed letters and bluish/green finish were used for both. As Roger nicely puts it, obvious 'out of period' buttons are restrikes - no argument about it; but 'in period' buttons are fair game.

GTB
Hello GTB

That nicely sums up my view anyway.

My theory is that Gaunt started to use a 'Gaunt London' backmark post Second World War/pre 1950, almost certainly alongside other, more detailed, backmarks but as time went on the 'Gaunt London' backmark became more common and this is the backmark found on most of their anodised buttons.

When in 1970 (or thereabouts) they agreed to restrike buttons that were no longer in use they used the old, original dies for the 'face' of the button but not the original backmark dies (which would have read something like 'J R Gaunt & Son Ltd London Eng'). Instead they used dies with the 'Gaunt London' backmark in use at that time. Quite possibly different dies were used which would explain some of the variations of backmarks on these restrikes.

I guess we may never know the full story and there will always be disagreement but I believe that to dismiss every brass 'Gaunt London' button (even with flawed letters and bluish/green finish) as a restrike is to go a step too far.

Worth remembering here that I am talking about large size buttons (1" or so) as the backmark 'system' on smaller buttons is not the same.

Roger
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  #108  
Old 10-01-18, 11:17 AM
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I'm beginning to think there is a myth surrounding the "tell-tale signs" indicating restrike buttons, one of them being the flawed G and T. While in the course of checking backmarks I came up with an a/a QC RAOC with above flawed letters. Obiously not a restrike. I am comfortable that such a backmark is a clear sign to collectors that 'out of period' buttons such as RDF and RMF are restrikes.

GTB
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  #109  
Old 17-03-18, 04:20 PM
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So perfectly original buttons exist that are marked Gaunt London?

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Hello GTB

That nicely sums up my view anyway.

My theory is that Gaunt started to use a 'Gaunt London' backmark post Second World War/pre 1950, almost certainly alongside other, more detailed, backmarks but as time went on the 'Gaunt London' backmark became more common and this is the backmark found on most of their anodised buttons.

When in 1970 (or thereabouts) they agreed to restrike buttons that were no longer in use they used the old, original dies for the 'face' of the button but not the original backmark dies (which would have read something like 'J R Gaunt & Son Ltd London Eng'). Instead they used dies with the 'Gaunt London' backmark in use at that time. Quite possibly different dies were used which would explain some of the variations of backmarks on these restrikes.

I guess we may never know the full story and there will always be disagreement but I believe that to dismiss every brass 'Gaunt London' button (even with flawed letters and bluish/green finish) as a restrike is to go a step too far.

Worth remembering here that I am talking about large size buttons (1" or so) as the backmark 'system' on smaller buttons is not the same.

Roger
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  #110  
Old 17-03-18, 05:09 PM
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So perfectly original buttons exist that are marked Gaunt London?
Absolutely right.

Roger
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  #111  
Old 17-03-18, 06:05 PM
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I think it is a little disappointing that the flawed "G" was used, it somehow looks a bloody poor show.
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  #112  
Old 21-06-18, 08:27 AM
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I have been sorting my Yeomanry buttons of which I have very few and this one has me wondering.

Yeomanry Buttons 1830-2000 by Ripley and Darmanin sadly doesn't give dates of use for the buttons illustrated so its difficult some times to work out a period but as a general rule anything marked "IY" should be pre 1908.

Its 19mm aprox so is a medium or small button depending on your preference.

I assume the Worcester Hussars button used during the first and second war period is 233, this "IY" marked example is 232.

Does this prove that it wasn't only the large buttons faked?

Rob
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  #113  
Old 21-06-18, 08:55 AM
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Hello Rob

There are several examples of yeomanry regiments continuing to use 'IY' on buttons long after 1908. Some are obvious, in Howard's book, figure 235 'East Riding Yeomanry' is found in a gold anodised version with the letters 'IY'. The Fife and Forfar Yeomanry (fig 68) is another example where a button with 'IY' is found in silver anodised.

I think it likely that your Worcestershire Hussars button falls into this category, the title being used long after it was redundant.

Personally, I have never seen a small version of any of the infamous Gaunt 'blue back' buttons. My understanding has always been that only large versions were produced, all with the familiar 'Gaunt London' backmark.

Roger
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  #114  
Old 23-06-18, 09:00 AM
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Roger

In the case of the Worcestershire Hussars there does seem to be a post "IY" pattern which may have been in use in the first war, maybe they did return to the earlier pattern after that though?

There are also a couple of large "Gaunt London" backed examples on ebay which I certainly wouldn't be adding to my collection now.

392029096106 122924869708

Rob
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  #115  
Old 23-06-18, 01:51 PM
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Hello Rob

The Worcestershire Hussars Yeomanry button with King's crown is on the list of known 1970s Gaunt restrikes and I would agree that the two on ebay you mentioned are most likely NOT period originals.

It does seem odd that the 'IY' in the title would have been reintroduced, so to speak. Perhaps it was never really replaced but continued in use alongside the 'official' pattern. When dealing with buttons, never say never!

Roger
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  #116  
Old 10-11-18, 10:46 AM
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I have read back through this thread and can't see a mention of this button but I could have missed it, it came with some other buttons I wanted but it doesn't fit in with my collection period wise so I would like the option of moving it on but is it genuine?

26mm very slightly domed under the shank.

Rob
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  #117  
Old 10-11-18, 05:11 PM
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Hello Rob

I don't think there is going to be a straightforward answer to your question!

According to Howard Ripley's book this pattern of button was used up until 1993 when the Regiment amalgamated to become The Queen's Royal Lancers.

His notes on the crowns/materials the button is found in state "Gilt and Brass, QVC and KC; Anodised, KC and QC" (the QVC obviously refers only to use by the 5th Royal Irish Lancers). The implication is that the button is NOT found in "Brass, QC", only in "Anodised QC". Of course, this may be an error and the button can be found in "Brass, QC"!

Unfortunately, just to confuse matters, the "16th/5th Lancers. QC" button is on the list of restrikes produced by Gaunt in the 1970s at the request of Doug Squires. Therein lies the conundrum, why restrike a button that would still have been in use at that time (ie 1970s) and why restrike it in a material that, apparently, it was never produced in (ie brass)?

Did Gaunt use an existing 'anodised button' die to restrike the button in brass as requested by Squires? Were they already producing (or had previously produced) the button in brass as a private purchase by officers and merely produced more to satisfy Squires? Had it been produced in brass earlier on and been superseded by anodised aluminium? We may never know.

Some of the 1970s restrikes are obvious - the wartime-raised cavalry regiments and the Irish regiments are glaring examples. Some are more difficult to be precise about. I think the best that can be said is that your button might be a 1970s restrike - unless someone else knows different!

Roger
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  #118  
Old 10-11-18, 05:45 PM
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Thank you Roger, I will add it to my restrike card and keep it.

Rob
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  #119  
Old 04-02-19, 01:34 PM
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How about this one?

Rob

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RAF-WW2-E...wAAOSwh99cUeVQ
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  #120  
Old 04-02-19, 03:42 PM
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Hello Rob

Interesting button but not, I would suggest with that backmark, a genuine WW2 example.

The KC version of the button was, of course, produced for years after the end of World War 2. Given the state of world affairs at the time I can see no reason why they would not continue to incorporate an escape compass in a 'post war' RAF button.

Just goes to show that the usual ebay seller description of everything military being WW1 or WW2 period is not always correct; it just makes things sell better.

Roger

Last edited by Cribyn; 05-02-19 at 11:49 AM. Reason: Grammar
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