Denbighshire Hussars c1914?

[GriffMJ]

Hi Keith

The badge is listed on page 1 here ----> http://www.blitzandpeaces.co.uk/Muse...taria/main.asp

[Alan O]

Plymouth CCF wore the same design badge as the 15th Londons. Whether it was exactly the same or a differnt die is another question.

I have always regarded bi-metal as Wilts Yeo, Blackened brass as 15th Londons (+PCCF) and bronzed brass with the raised up scrolls as DH. However whether any/all of these units wore another version is always possible and I was interested in the comment that the DH wore bi-metal badges. Whether the WD went to the expense of issuing them Bz badges in later WW1 or they made do with the more available bi-metal ones is an interesting question that only a trip to Kew (and a lot of luck in the records) could confirm.

[1stTankie]

Hi Griff

My reference to comparing the scrolls of the officer’s Denbighshire Hussars to those of the OR’s one was intended to be light hearted and not taken too seriously. I felt sure you wouldn’t have.

However, on a more serious note, having read Bryn Owen’s book in the text of which he states:
“The Cap Badge worn by other ranks sealed 23rd October 1901, consisted of the Plumes, Coronet and Motto of the Prince of Wales in brass or gilding metal. The Collar Badges of similar size but with Plumes and Motto Scroll in in White Metal and Coronet gilding metal“
it raises the question of the validity of the claims by Hugh King and John Gaylor concerning the possibility of a Bronze version.

Again, in his book, Bryn published photographs of the Sealed Patterns of both the ORs’ Cap and Collar badges, (this by kind permission of Keith Hook) and the notes appended thereto state “ The Plumes, Coronet and Motto Scroll of the Cap and Collar Badges are in white metal, and the Coronet in Brass /Gilding Metal“. There is no reference to a bronze version here.

I knew Bryn Owen, who as the Curator of the Welsh Regiment Museum in Cardiff, would surely have had access to some of the most impeccable sources.

With reference to the Officers’ badges he states that they come in several versions but post 1906 the whole (of the badge) “bronzed or brown painted”

Could the reference to bronzed ORs’ badges have been an assumption because the officers’ badges were so coloured?

I would welcome your thoughts.

Best wishes

Gordon

[Alan O]

These are mine. A bi-metal, blackened (painted) brass and a bronzed brass. The bz one has had a layer of bronze powder applied to it at time of manufacture. The reverse shows the 2 different finishes.

[GriffMJ]

Gordon

I am heartened by the fact that Bryn Owen confirms a "Brass" badge (as described by Wilkinson also) and the fact that the bi metal (Alan's) example shown above is an exact match to the full brass badge I have gives it more credence?

[41st]

Gordon,
Bryn wasn't adverse to the odd mistake.
Understandable with the shear amount of material he went through.
I have been lucky enough to get copies of some of his research on the Welsh Regiment.
If you look closely at the sealed patterns photographed on page 214 of his book you will see that they are actually designated as Officers' patterns, whereas, as you have pointed out, Bryn refers to them as ORs patterns in the description below.
Yet without a doubt the trooper seated in the photograph on page 213 has the same collar badges as referred to in the sealed pattern.
At present I believe the same pattern was worn by both Officers and ORs until the Officers took up the pattern with the title scroll. When this was I have not yet ascertained.
Hwyl,
Kevin

Griff,
I don't think the publishers of Bryn's books would be too happy about copying and posting bits of their publication.

[GriffMJ]

Chwarae teg Kevin..... but you could always email them to me ;o)

Hwyl

[GriffMJ]

If there is no record of the RWYPWO having had a "full" brass badge...... then can we assume then that the badge below "is" a DH badge for the following reasons:-

1. Bryn Owen & F Wilkinson acknowledge the existance of a Brass DH O/R badge (as well as a Bronze O/Rs of a different pattern).

2. The feathers, Coronet & "Ich Dien" Scroll design is an exact match to the Officers "scrolled" version and also a Bi-Metal O/Rs example.

3. It is not a PCCF or a 15th Btn Rifles or an RWYPWO (as they didnt have a full brass, according to a learn'ed member).

[Alan O]

Perhaps but why cannot it be a London Regt badge?

Alan

[GriffMJ]

Well..... another spanner in the works

Its going to be "one of those" badges I think.

[GriffMJ]

Gordon might like this (I do) :-
However, on a more serious note, having read Bryn Owen’s book in the text of which he states:
“The Cap Badge worn by other ranks sealed 23rd October 1901, consisted of the Plumes, Coronet and Motto of the Prince of Wales in brass or gilding metal. The Collar Badges of similar size but with Plumes and Motto Scroll in in White Metal and Coronet gilding metal“

The Brass badge approx Height = 33mm & Width = 38mm (the Collar badge shown is approx 26mm x 26mm.... belongs to AlanO )

[1stTankie]

Hi Griff

Well done, I do believe we're there!

We can all sleep easy in our beds tonight!

Best wishes and pleasant dreams

Gordon

[GriffMJ]

Its plausable though

Without prejudice:-
I see no reason for the O/Rs to have a different pattern Prince of Wales badge to that of the officers....... and by that I mean the design? The Officers badge is "differenced" only by the DH scroll beneath. Not trying to rock any boats..... just my own view.

[41st]

Sorry Griff, as already stated in your other post that OSD is wrong imo.
Below is one that I've got with it's original cap. You can see the difference.
As mentioned in the other post I've also got a Gaunt made example (which I'll upload on the weekend) of much sturdier construction.
With regard to the all brass version you're showing I've never seen a photograph of anyone wearing one, apart from the bi-metal I've only seen the bronze in use.
Hwyl,
Kevin

[GriffMJ]

Diolch Kevin

Thats a much better looking example...... any chance of a rear view? Is that a "chip" in the top right "Dien" scroll?