Small Arms & Musketry

[Third Tankie]

Hi,

Two badges for opinions please.

Thanks

Kevin

[manchesters]

Top badge is a fantasy item also found in white metal and both often with red material behind the crown

regards

[tonyb]

Kevin,
I'm not a fan of the bottom badge, Crown isn't right in my opinion.
Tony.

[Luke H]

Bottom badge is a fake from the same die as the one featured in the Martin Marsh catalogues.

Top badge also appears in said catalogue.

[Third Tankie]

Simon, Tony and Luke,

It`s unanimous, into the crap bin with both of them.

Thankyou all.

Kevin

[manchesters]

Kevin,

I hope this crap bin is quite large because the majority of the badges you have shown today are destined for it.

No offence.

regards

[Frank Kelley]

Just to add my own thoughts, not that they are needed, I too, think both are rubbish and the top example is completely spurious.

Originally Posted by Third Tankie

Hi,

Two badges for opinions please.

Thanks

Kevin

[3dg]

Why are people not being open minded.
There is always a suprise appears in the badge collecting world, a badge we thought was never worn etc etc.
Yes, this large crown crossed rifles badge may have been copied to death, and why not from an original die, the COPIES will be in the MMarsh but as I said, we have to keep an open mind, these badges may have existed.
If someone with experience, like Toby, says they have seen these badges worn, then we have to take that on bored, and try and seek out there existance, not just right it off because it's in the M Marsh catalogue, or they have been made in many metals, or because someone said They're fake etc etc.
Come on, that's what these forums are about, not to get all wound up because someone decides to edit their post, it's all pointless bickering.
If someone has seen the badge worn, especially on period photos, then its not a fantasy item, just more research is required, and it's obvious to me the fakes of this badge are from the original die, that's why it appears in the MM.
That's all I have to say, people need to chill, especially in these strange times.

Stay safe all

Chris

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by 3dg

Why are people not being open minded.
There is always a suprise appears in the badge collecting world, a badge we thought was never worn etc etc.

Yes, this large crown crossed rifles badge may have been copied to death, and why not from an original die, the COPIES will be in the MMarsh but as I said, we have to keep an open mind, these badges may have existed.

If someone has seen the badge worn, especially on period photos, then its not a fantasy item, just more research is required, and it's obvious to me the fakes of this badge are from the original die, that's why it appears in the MM.

I don’t believe I have been closed minded. As I said in my post ‘until a photograph of it in wear surfaces, which I would be amazed, it remains for me a fantasy badge.’ If I’m shown a photo of it I will change my view however I’d put my mortgage on no such photo existing pre-1970s.

The vast majority of the badges, over 90%, in MM are out and out fakes from newly created fake dies. There are comparatively very few ‘true restrikes’ from original FN and Gaunt dies within the catalogue.

Additionally as I’ve said in other posts we have cases in modernity where PRI purchase items have been sourced from MM and other fakers for wear. Such items as I’ve stated before become a grey area in terms of authenticity. My personal opinion is that it would make any badge actually physically worn genuine but would not give credence to the die itself and would not therefore make the thousands of fakes, restrikes, fantasy items preceding it genuine. This scenario is the only one which I feel could be the case with this badge but could again be post 1970s.

Stylistically this badge strikes me as being made by the hand of fakers. My rationale is the crown and jewels or rather that they are not jewels at all just hollow outlines. I would love for anyone to show me a KC or QVC period die stamped cap/arm badge with identical sunken jewels that have no actual substance and are merely outlines. So often with fakes the quality and fine detail of the crown is lacking, as it is here. Victorian, Edwardian and Georgian engravers were frankly better than this with their craft.

The hollow jewels do however appear in MM on the following fakes: 25th London Cyclists, QVC 4th Hussars, QVC 7th Hussars, QVC 8th Hussars ... I could go on but this is from memory.

I’ve attached pictures of several other fantasy badges. Re your last point, the reason they appear in MM is to sell, nothing more.

And perhaps finally that MM himself claims it to be a large helmet badge.

Moreover I think on this one the burden of proof is on Toby. Otherwise we enter into debates about double scroll Nelly pagri badges and SWB militia battalion glengarry’s potentially being real when there is a landslide of evidence to the contrary.

I do not consider myself a naysayer but given the above I would need to see this photo before I believe.

[manchesters]

Well said Luke and totally agree.

regards