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  #16  
Old 16-10-12, 03:55 PM
ncc ncc is offline
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where did the idea that badges with long sliders were worn on the puggeree come from?
i have owned and handled dozens of fsh's ,most have had nothing the vast majority with insignia have had cloth in some form or another, one or two metal pinned badges and a few with metal lugged badges on the side of the puggaree and on the front ,the guards and lancers if i remember correctly.
i have never seen an original fsh with a badge with a long slider ,having not seen one of course does not mean they don't exist but with all the hundreds of badges with long sliders that abound in collections you would have thought they would be a bit more common than they are.
Bob
  #17  
Old 16-10-12, 04:27 PM
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I stand corrected by Peter's post 17. In my Post 16 when I wrote WO documents, I had in mind WO 359 - the ledgers of the Royal Army Clothing Dept which lists all ORs badges.

The only documentary information I have come across referring to slider length is that in March 1906 sliders were "shortened". I have to admit that as I'm seeking to understand differences in badge fixings it appears to be that old favourite - 'manufacturers variations'.

Incidentally - Peter - It is our own dear Kings Regt that wore their metal (cap) badge high up on the front of the FSH, above the puggaree ! Though they, and most others, soon opted for cloth badges / flashes.
  #18  
Old 16-10-12, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumpy View Post
Dangerous ground!

The usually accepted authority on Anglo-Indian is HOBSON JOBSON.

This gives Pagri as the "Hindi .. in the colloquial for a scarf of cotton or silk wound round the head in turban form, to protest the head from the sun ......
also spellings puggry, puggerie,pagari, puggaree, puckerie ...."


I think you need to substantiate your definition.

The OED does nothing to contradict the above.
I dont know why it is 'Dangerous ground'!!! I was not pointing the finger, simply asking which was meant, as I know them as two different items.

Personally I have not heard of 'Hobson Jobson', but I take a lead from the well known Indian RAF pilot Squadron Leader Mohinder Singh Pujji. He had joined the RAF amongst a group of trainees in 1940, and flew through the war, being known particularly for the fact that he always wore his turban, complete with RAF badge, even to the point of carrying a spare in the cockpit in case he was forced down. I corresponded at length with Pujji before his death, and raised many questions about the Turban and badge, and he was insistant it was a pagri or Dastar, the puggaree being the strip of cloth worn around the hat, often with a long train at the back. Being a distinguished Indian Sikh, I take his opinion.

The OED has no definition for either pagri or puggaree, but one force to still wear the puggaree is the Australians, and their website gives a definitive answer; http://www.army.gov.au/Our-history/T...The-Slouch-Hat. The full turban is a pagri, the strip of cloth adapted from it for wear initially by the British, a puggaree.

I have an example of the RAF puggaree flash, which is in three colours (dark blue, pale blue and maroon), and was worn on the 'Wolseley/Sun Helmet' (North Africa), 'Pith Hat' (India) and 'Bush Hat' (Far East). The RAF pagri badge, as worn by Pujji and others (in fact Pujji claims to have 'invented it, the RAF never having call for such a badge before) is a brass or gilt eagle and crown with a large spike fixing, worn to the front.

As for 'substantiating my definition', I refer to Royal Air Force Dress Regulations 1939 which state, '47. Hat, Pith (for officers serving in India) Khaki puggaree as for "Wolseley" pattern helmet but half the length and to be 5 folds... Flash fitted as on "Wolesley" pattern helmet.

Additionally, '48. Helmets. "Wolseley" pattern, cork, made with six seams, bound with buff leather...Khaki 3 fold puggaree 2 1/2 inches at each side. Flash worn vertically on the left side sewn down the centre of the puggaree; the flash is 3 1/8 inches in height and consists of dark blue 1 inch in width, light blue 3/16 inch and dark red 1 inch, reckoned from front of helmet.'

Hope that is enough of a substantiation? I dont have army dress regulations to hand, but personally doubt they would call the same item a pagri...
  #19  
Old 16-10-12, 06:10 PM
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01.jpg
In Dress Regulations for 1911 the word "Pagri" is clearly used to describe the cloth fold on the FSH.
  #20  
Old 16-10-12, 06:41 PM
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Is the term Pagri has been used for centuries to suggest the full turban, its clear the meaning was changed to indicate the term for the small wrap of cloth certainly by the second world war, and up to the present.
  #21  
Old 16-10-12, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Stewart View Post
Attachment 71136
In Dress Regulations for 1911 the word "Pagri" is clearly used to describe the cloth fold on the FSH.
In that case Graham, it looks conclusive to me that the term 'pagri badge' would be a correct term to use for a badge in/on the fold of material on a FSH.

Ivan
  #22  
Old 16-10-12, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Stewart View Post
Attachment 71136
In Dress Regulations for 1911 the word "Pagri" is clearly used to describe the cloth fold on the FSH.
i do like the sentence 'No badges,plumes, hackles or ornaments of any description are to be worn on the kharki helmet.'

we can take the dress regulations as gospel then.
Bob
  #23  
Old 16-10-12, 09:13 PM
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Well...........what about Peter's badge?

I think that somebody stuck a longer than normal slider on it so that it could be worn on an item of headgear that warranted a longer than normal fixing to ensure it didn't fall out whilst charging headlong, yelling loudly with fixed bayonet into a skirmish...............perhaps behind a piece of cloth worn around a Foreign Service Helmet or something similar.

Or perhaps so that it could be pushed further down into a FSC and the wearer would be able to scratch any itch on the front of his head, without having to remove his cap.....important on parade perhaps.

Or just adapted so that it could be removed from the headwear being worn at the time and used as a tea stirrer.

Or, howabout a wily soldier putting it on his badge for the occasions when (there was no straw available because it had been used for horse feed) whoever drew the short straw had to undertake an onerous task, and badge sliders were substituted for straw.

Or some sliders were wrongly manufactured longer than required, but still fixed to badges and issued to troops.

Or the answer could be as simple as we'll never really know until dress regulations explaining the use of a long slider are discovered.



Regards
Brian
  #24  
Old 16-10-12, 09:18 PM
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I see where you are going with this Brian.

How about its because someone wanted to cause confusion, arguments and speculation amongst a group of people in years to come?

Ivan
  #25  
Old 16-10-12, 09:27 PM
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Hi Ivan.

Yet again I agree with you.

How's life with you................too short for problems like this I think.

Regards
Brian
  #26  
Old 16-10-12, 09:59 PM
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I'm fine thanks Brian, hope your'e well too.

I suppose discussions about problems like this add to the knowledge we all seem to crave.

In years to come, I hope to have left a few mysteries for future generations to ponder on such as:

Who had this badge made and why?
http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=24259

And who planted 5,000trees to form a woodland in the shape of a letter X and why?

Yep, life's too short for problems like this.........

Ivan
  #27  
Old 16-10-12, 11:09 PM
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One day, I'm going to find a HPC that doesn't really appeal to me and stick a four inch slider on it I won't say anything and then a few months later I'll ask if anyone knows why it was done what a jape ??

By the way Brian, I think you've just about covered it all in one swell move well done mate.

Dave.
  #28  
Old 16-10-12, 11:23 PM
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Dave, felicitations.

Thanks mate.

Long slider on a helmet plate....hmmm....now there's an idea.

Hope to see you at Stratford; if you are going, please let me know and your stick will make the journey to Warwickshire.

Regards
Brian
  #29  
Old 17-10-12, 12:28 AM
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I speculate that the badge originally posted was intended for wear in the Universal Service Dress headddress (terai or slouch hat), c. 1902-1904, the slider being able to fit the socket produced for that cap and which was also approved for the FSH.

I base this on the following: WO359/12 P120-121 records that on 5th Jan 1903, at a meeting in the pattern room of the RACD, the decision was taken that the same badge was to be worn on both the FSH, and the Universal Service Hat. The records of this meeting show that for cavalry the FSC badge was to be used, infantry regiments were to use their helmet plate centres, and both were to be fitted with a slider. Also with the fact that the socket for the slouch hat was, I believe, of a size to take this length of slider

In this case the FSH means the white FSH. So yes I think these sliders were approved for the FSH c. 1903 but also for the slouch hat. These slider lengths seem to have been abandoned shortly thereafter.

Now I know nothing about the ASC cap badge patterns so will not be wholly surprised if the pattern attached does not match the dates above.


John
  #30  
Old 17-10-12, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncc View Post
i do like the sentence 'No badges,plumes, hackles or ornaments of any description are to be worn on the kharki helmet.'

we can take the dress regulations as gospel then.
Bob
Bob,

I don't think anything is gospel, but to be fair this example of rule breaking is in my opinion/experience very much the exception rather than the rule.

As an example, 1 RMF was stationed in Rangoon 1911-1914, moving to Poona in early 1915 and there are plenty of photos, a lot on the web, showing all ranks wearing a hackle and a metal "M Grenade F" badge on first a rectangular, and then a shamrock cloth backing in the khaki FSH.

In 1915 the battalion landed in Coventry , on their way to forming up in 29th Division fort he Dardanelles. There is well documented photographs of the battalion, most still in Indian khaki service dress with FSH's on arrival in Coventry but now the hackle, badge and backing are gone.

Perhaps they were conforming to regulation now that they were stationed at home and less able to exercise the freedom from regulations that seems to have been possible in Burma & India.

So the dress regs were certainly not followed as gospel but are still very valuable, with other sources for research.

John
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