White Hackles

[tonyb]

Hi,
can anyone give me any information regards to these two white feather hackles. I am aware that several regiments wore a white hackle but is there any significance to the different styles i.e can they be attributed to a specific regiment?
Regards Tony.

[grey_green_acorn]

The longer one on the left looks like the Royal Welch Fusiliers type worn behind the cap badge in the blue beret and more recently in the khaki beret by 1st Battalion Royal Welsh.
The shorter hackle on the right is the type worn by the Royal Highland Fusiliers worn in a MacKenzie tartan patch in the khaki Tam O Shanter (TOS). More recently worn by 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Scotland (2 SCOTS).

[Peter Brydon]

Tony,
All I can say is that the style of a hackle depends on how it was worn and in what headgear, for example the Cameron Highlanders ( and Liverpool Scottish who still wear it ) had a blue hackle worn behind the badge and backing with only a small portion of the hackle extends beyond the badge.These hackles tend to be flat in shape

Some Fusiliers regiments and some Irish regiments ( Liverpool Irish example illustrated ) in the beret or caubeen have a long tall hackle which emerges above the badge and is bushier. Bushier hackles also worn on the side on the Fusiliers bearskins.

Hopefully other members might be able to tell you more about the white hackles and who wore them. ( Didnt the RWF wear a white hackle ? )

P.B.


Apologies to GGA by the time I had take and downloaded some photos his reply had been submitted

[tonyb]

Thanks to GGA and Peter for answers to questions, now have another question, Peter shows a nice Liverpool Irish caubeen complete with badge and blue over red hackle.
Back in July 03 I bought a Royal Dragoon Guards cap badge it is slidered and is the new improved metal type with a red cross as opposed to the plain A/A .
The badge came complete with a blue over red hackle that looks as new as the badge .
Now my question is are these two items in anyway connected?
Best Regards Tony.

[54Bty]

As far as I know this hackle (blue over red) was only worn by All Ranks of 626 (Liverpool Irish) HAA Regt RA (TA) and successors.

I would be pleased to lean that the 8th (Irish) Battalion, The King’s Regiment (Liverpool) were wearing it prior to conversion to RA in 1947.

[KLR]

Marc, the following items for the new 8th (Irish) Bn were requested on 12th June 1939

Headdress. Caubeen – all ranks.
Officers. Dark Green, Red and St Patrick’s blue hackle. Silver plated badge.
Other Ranks. Khaki, Red and Green hackle, White metal badge.

After much discussion (mostly on badges and headgear) these were finally approved by the WO on 23rd November 1939,
(I thought I had further notes about their hackle somewhere, I'll try and find them)
Julian

[54Bty]

Julian,
Thank for the that. I think that there is a difference in the colours of the hackle you posted and the one in post number 4 that has the same colours as mine which is from the sucessors of 626.

[1stTankie]

Hi Tony

In today's edition of the Daily Telegraph there is a photograph of members of The Royal Welsh Regiment in the presence of H M The Queen. All the soldiers appear to be wearing a beret. The majority have the "long" hackle which you posted but some have no hackle at all.

The question is "Why not?" Is this matter of rank?

Best wishes

Gordon

[grey_green_acorn]

I think I am correct in saying that Royal Welsh officers do not wear the hackle nor do soldiers attached from other arms (AGC, REME, RLC etc} who may wear the Khaki beret with their own cap badge but no hackle?

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by tonyb

Hi,
can anyone give me any information regards to these two white feather hackles. I am aware that several regiments wore a white hackle but is there any significance to the different styles i.e can they be attributed to a specific regiment?
Regards Tony.

Initially the small hackles used in both forms of head dress were those of the Royal Scots Fusiliers (later RHF) as these too were white and already on the Army's QM inventory for use in ToS. Later it seems that the Royal Fusiliers obtained a supplier for larger hackles that looked better in berets, although I am unclear whether these were issued or privately supplied. The larger hackles contunued to be worn until the Fusilier Brigade (who wore the same 'Brigade' Cap Badge but differing Hackles) became the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers in 1968. Ironically the Royal Welch Fusiliers continued to use the smaller hackle intended for RSF/RHF until well into the 1970s, when they at last adopted a larger size of hackle (albeit purchased in regimental shop) that was previously worn by the Royal Fusiliers. This same hackle is now worn by both battalions of a new regiment, the Royal Welsh.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by tonyb

Hi,
can anyone give me any information regards to these two white feather hackles. I am aware that several regiments wore a white hackle but is there any significance to the different styles i.e can they be attributed to a specific regiment?
Regards Tony.

The first regiments to wear the white hackle were the 3 'original' Fusilier regiments and the reason for doing so is that they were dressed "as grenadiers" but with a shorter head dress to facilitate the 'slinging' of their 'fusil' muskets. All Grenadier companies of Line Regts and, later, the Grenadier Guards had/have white hackles in their full dress head dress. The 3 regiments were:

7th Foot - Royal Fusiliers. Now the Royal Regt of Fusiliers and with a red and white hackle.
21st Foot - Royal North British (later Scots) Fusiliers. Now the 2nd Batt Royal Regt of Scotland, still with white hackle.
23rd Foot - Royal Welsh (later Welch) Fusiliers. Now the 1st Batt the Royal Welsh, still with white hackle.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by tonyb

Hi,
can anyone give me any information regards to these two white feather hackles. I am aware that several regiments wore a white hackle but is there any significance to the different styles i.e can they be attributed to a specific regiment?
Regards Tony.

As regards when Fusiliers might have started wearing a hackle in their undress/day-to-day headress, my supposition would be around 1943. I base this on photos of a brother regiment (they were affiliated ever since Albuhera), the Royal Welch Fusiliers. I have seen photos of the latter greeting Winston Churchill at the Bermuda Conference in 1953 and they are wearing the precursor to the beret, the General Service Cap. This was in all khaki cloth and similar to the beret except that it had a 'self fabric' head band rather than leather, which was also deeper and not unlike that on the caubeen or tam o shanter (ToS). This General Service Cap was introduced in 1943 to replace the ORs Khaki Field Service Cap (or so-called side hat) and it seems possible that hackles began to be worn around that time when on parade (only) to smarten up drab Battle Dress and was not universally replaced by (usually dark blue) berets until the mid 1950s. I suspect that only band and drums and quarter guards would have been issued with hackles for 'special occasions'.

Initially the small hackles used in both forms of head dress were those of the Royal Scots Fusiliers (later RHF) as these too were white and already on the Army's QM inventory for use in ToS. Later it seems that the Royal Fusiliers obtained a supplier for larger hackles that looked better in berets, although I am unclear whether these were issued or privately supplied. The larger hackles contunued to be worn until the Fusilier Brigade (who wore the same 'Brigade' Cap Badge but differing Hackles) became the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers in 1968. Ironically the Royal Welch Fusiliers continued to use the smaller hackle intended for RSF/RHF until well into the 1970s, when they at last adopted a larger size of hackle (albeit purchased in regimental shop) that was previously worn by the Royal Fusiliers. This same hackle is now worn by both battalions of a new regiment, the Royal Welsh.

I would be interested to hear if anyone has seen any photos of the Royal Fusiliers wearing a General Service Cap and hackle after 1943 and before the introduction of the blue beret worn for a period by all fusilier regiments less RSF/RHF.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grey_green_acorn

I think I am correct in saying that Royal Welsh officers do not wear the hackle nor do soldiers attached from other arms (AGC, REME, etc} who may wear the Khaki beret with their own cap badge but no hackle?

Officers and warrant officers do not wear the hackle, but attached personnel generally do.

[tonyb]

Toby,
I think that your replies must cover any question ever asked about a white feather hackles, truely encyclopaedic (hope my spelling is ok cant locate my spell checker)
Regards Tony.

[leigh kitchen]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

As regards when Fusiliers might have started wearing a hackle in their undress/day-to-day headress, my supposition would be around 1943. I base this on photos of a brother regiment (they were affiliated ever since Albuhera), the Royal Welch Fusiliers. I have seen photos of the latter greeting Winston Churchill at the Bermuda Conference in 1953 and they are wearing the precursor to the beret, the General Service Cap. This was in all khaki cloth and similar to the beret except that it had a 'self fabric' head band rather than leather, which was also deeper and not unlike that on the caubeen or tam o shanter (ToS). This General Service Cap was introduced in 1943 to replace the ORs Khaki Field Service Cap (or so-called side hat) and it seems possible that hackles began to be worn around that time when on parade (only) to smarten up drab Battle Dress and was not universally replaced by (usually dark blue) berets until the mid 1950s. I suspect that only band and drums and quarter guards would have been issued with hackles for 'special occasions'.

Initially the small hackles used in both forms of head dress were those of the Royal Scots Fusiliers (later RHF) as these too were white and already on the Army's QM inventory for use in ToS. Later it seems that the Royal Fusiliers obtained a supplier for larger hackles that looked better in berets, although I am unclear whether these were issued or privately supplied. The larger hackles contunued to be worn until the Fusilier Brigade (who wore the same 'Brigade' Cap Badge but differing Hackles) became the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers in 1968. Ironically the Royal Welch Fusiliers continued to use the smaller hackle intended for RSF/RHF until well into the 1970s, when they at last adopted a larger size of hackle (albeit purchased in regimental shop) that was previously worn by the Royal Fusiliers. This same hackle is now worn by both battalions of a new regiment, the Royal Welsh.

I would be interested to hear if anyone has seen any photos of the Royal Fusiliers wearing a General Service Cap and hackle after 1943 and before the introduction of the blue beret worn for a period by all fusilier regiments less RSF/RHF.

I have a RF white hackle worn by an uncle in the 1950's - it's around somewhere tucked away in an old condensed milk tin my grandmother put it in with a mothball 50 - 60 years ago. It's only about 3" - 4" tall. It has small (presumably chicken) feathers rather than the ugly cut down goose or turkey or whatever feathers of some later white hackles.

Part of the difficulty re. attributing hackles to particular units & time periods is that the construction & appearance of the hackle varied within a unit because of changes of specification or supplier or because some would be PRI items. It could even be the norm for a unit to wear PRI items, issue items being handed out for certain parades & the like & then immediately withdrawn back to stores & replaced in the headgear by the PRI purchased ones

Add to that the hackles of defunct regiments commissioned for Old Comrades use & the plethora of modern day offerings of various shapes, sizes & fowel for private purchase military use, re-enactors & civilian bands etc.......

Another thread concerning hackles: http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=13627