Does anyone recognise this Rhodie medic badge ?

[natal01]

This anodised badge is a bit of a mystery. It is made by Reutler of Salisbury, Rhodesia and doesnt appear in any of the standard Rhodesian badge books. Has anyone seen it before ?
Thanks
Mike

[johnG]

Not a Rhodie Medic Badge I'm afraid. It is the shield from the armorial bearings of the old Rhodesian Posts and Telecommunications Corporation (PTC), and in my opinion it is a shocking example of heraldry, the main charge as depicted on the badge being very similar to that of the Times Publishing Company, and the use of a bordure wavy I consider a big mistake.

Edited to hastily add the armorial bearings of the PTC were designed in Bulawayo, Rhodesia (As it was then) in 1970, absolutely nothing to do with the College of Arms

Regards,
johnG

[rhodesianmilitaria]

My understanding is that it is a medical badge that's why it has the universal medical symbol displayed on the obverse.
They were made by Tool & Mould in Salisbury. I haven't seen one made by Reuteler.
Not every Rhodesian badge or patch is illustrated in a book or reference book. They don't even have every para wing or AD wing used in Rhodesia just from 1955-1980.
I did have some info on the badge somewhere so I'll have to try and find it.

Rhodesia Medic 1a.jpg
Rhodesia Medic 1b.jpg

[johnG]

I agree the device bears a marked resemblance to some badges used by medical corps, but is not the preserve of the medics, and in this case that bordure wavy round the shield is a dead give-away.

The arms of the PTC used to adorn the front cover of the old Rhodesian telephone directories, and for the arms of the Times Publishing Company I refer you to page 232 of Boutell's Heraldry, 1978 revised edition.

johnG

[johnG]

Armorial bearings of the PTC. Not a good picture, but enough to illustrate my point.

[johnG]

Another picture showing the PTC badge

[johnG]

And finally, a better picture, lifted from Google Images, and showing thre date in 1970 the design came into use by the PTC, although I had seen it in March of that year when it had already been accepted.

Sorry, picture too big for me to fit it in, but it shows a better representation of the armorial bearings and the date of their introduction by the PTC on 1 July 1970, which was the date of the formation of the PTC, although I had seen a copy of the design in March of that year in the bar of the Selborne Hotel in Bulawayo, when it had already been accepted by the PTC.

I think this draws a line under the matter.

[rhodesianmilitaria]

How is the symbol on the badge an armorial bearings when it is the universal medical symbol?
Why would the Rhodesian Posts and Telecommunications Corporation which has nothing to do with medical use only the universal medical symbol on it's badges?

[johnG]

The device is NOT, repeat NOT the preserve of the medical corps of this world. It is a device adopted by them, and as such has become their recognised symbol.

If you want to follow your line of thinking then would you say the Tudor Rose is the sole preserve of the Intelligence Corps.

As to why the PTC adopted it, then I agree with you, it was not a good idea, and I made my thoughts on that very clear to the person responsible, together with my scorn on the use of that bordure, or 'border' if you prefer.

Edited to add: 'The symbol on the badge' is not an 'armorial bearings', it is a detail taken from same, being the shield forming part of armorial bearings, i.e. a coat of arms , which in this case forms part of the armorial bearings of the PTC. As mentioned earlier, heraldry is a mine field for the unwary.

To get back to the main point. The badge is that of the PTC. Amen.

[Eddie Parks]

OK - let me try to explain - after a long chat with my classics educated son.

The staff shown here with two snakes and a set of wings is the symbol of Hermes or Mercury, and is properly known as a Caduceus - which in ancient times was the badge of office carried by Heralds. As such it has over the years been adopted by organisations involved in occupations relating to transportation or communications. Thus it is quite correctly used by the PTC. It also forms a minor part of the Rhodesian Corps of Signals cap badge, carried in Murcury's left hand.

It is often mistaken for the traditional medical symbol, the Rod of Asclepius, which has one snake and no wings. Take a look at the badge of the Rhodesian Medical Corps to see what I mean.

So absolutely nothing to do with medics, everything to do with transport and comms.

Eddie

[johnG]

Thank you Eddie for another voice on the scene.

I agree with much of what you say, particularly about the heralds, communications, etc, and thus the PTC were not entirely wrong to adopt it, but perhaps a bit presumptuous ...after all a bloke running through the bush with a message in a forked stick would have been more apt for the posts and telecommunications service in that country prior to my leaving there in 2004, and a damned sight quicker. I doubt if the service has improved.

I also agree about the one snake job for the RAMC and most other medical units, but just to confuse the issue there are medical badges with two snakes, the collar dogs of a Medical Officer in the RAF come to mind, and there are others, with wings on the staff to give them an uplift.

So OK, I can at a push forgive the PTC for that main charge on their arms, it is not the sole right of the medics, and perhaps they wanted to show they had somebody on the staff who knew about classical things, and the bloke who designed it was on their staff

I would have preferred to see something different but at a push I'll go along with it, but can never forgive the bordure wavy, at one time a sign of the bearer of the arms being illegitimate, although that is something I often thought appropriate about the PTC when trying to make a telephone call in that country, and to make it worse they tried to explain that border away by saying it 'represented electricity', when a wavy line in heraldry represents water, and half the time we had power cuts anyway.

So my points are:
(1) It is wrong to say the device is that of a Rhodie medic outfit. It is that of the PTC.

(2) That ******* bordure is so wrong I hate it, in fact I hate the whole badge.

Your son is a gentleman and a scholar, sir.

Kind regards,

John

[natal01]

Well , that generated a bit of heat !
Thanks for the clarification - it will go down as a Rhodesian P & T badge.
It is a confusing badge. I jumped to the obvious conclusion that it was a medic badge but have now been convinced otherwise.
It is this sort of contribution and debate that makes this forum worthwhile.
Regards
Mike

[johnG]

I quite agree with you Mike, I just love it when we kick something backwards and forwards on this forum.

Long time since I was in Durbs. Great place.

Best wishes

John

[Milmed]

Thanks for this post guys,
I too have one of these; was told to be Rhodesian ambulance and rescue service cap badge. But from the expanation I can see it is definately PTC cap badge.

As for the winged double snake(or caduceus) i concur that it is more appropriate to communication. It does get a bit confusing when used by medical units (RAF medical section) and US Army medical collar badges. Not sure why RAF adopted them (maybe to be different to the RAMC) but the yanks have been using it since the civil war. They did change to a cross pattee during 1900-1902, but reverted to the caduceus in 1902. I have some explanation somewhere and will post if I can find it.

PS. The South African Medical Service use both the Aesulapius (part of cap badge) and the Caduceus (qualification insignia)

Steven

[johnG]

Here we go then, a publicity thing issued at the time