The Black Watch

To me, this looks like every other Black Watch badge I have ever seen of this common pattern. Am I missing something ? Regards. David

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by Spencer

I brought this a couple of weeks ago and I do think it's genuine .
The Cast is totally different than any other Black watch badge I have seen .
The leafs at that bottom of the badge over the writing are more profound than I have seen on any other badge .
This also carries on to the thistles and the writing Black Watch .
Has anyone seen this before and any ideas of what period this may have been made .
Spencer

Spencer,

I know what you me re the large thistle steams but it is just a die variation albeit one not see so often but still pretty common and nothing out of the ordinary for this regiment... re dating it all I can say is the obvious 1902 to when the badge changed in '37 I believe (off the top of my head). If the story is true about the BW with the cracked die under the sphinx tablet being the first KC badge issued to this regiment I would have thought this particular die would be later.

Cheers,

Luke

[davec2]

Originally Posted by Spencer

I brought this a couple of weeks ago and I do think it's genuine .
The Cast is totally different than any other Black watch badge I have seen .
The leafs at that bottom of the badge over the writing are more profound than I have seen on any other badge .
This also carries on to the thistles and the writing Black Watch .
Has anyone seen this before and any ideas of what period this may have been made .
Spencer

Hello Spencer,
Looking at both of mine, yours differs in as much as the stalks of the bottom leaves on mine are horizontal and in line with the top of the scrolls, the leaves do not take up too much room either and also the head of the sphinx does not have any interference from the same stalks, see my 'all albums ', I think joachim would be a good person to ask as far as validity is concerned, in my opinion, that is.
Regards,
Dave.

[davec2]

Originally Posted by Luke Halls

Spencer,

I know what you me re the large thistle steams but it is just a die variation albeit one not see so often but still pretty common and nothing out of the ordinary for this regiment... re dating it all I can say is the obvious 1902 to when the badge changed in '37 I believe (off the top of my head). If the story is true about the BW with the cracked die under the sphinx tablet being the first KC badge issued to this regiment I would have thought this particular die would be later.

Cheers,

Luke

Hello Luke,
I remember Malcolm telling me about the fault under the tablet that the sphinx rests on, I can't remember the date, both of mine has that fault, as I have just said to Spencer, the leaves on mine are a lot tidier, ???
Regards,
Dave.

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by davec2

Hello Luke,
I remember Malcolm telling me about the fault under the tablet that the sphinx rests on, I can't remember the date, both if mine has that fault, as I have just said to Spencer, the leaves on mine are a lot tidier, ???
Regards,
Dave.

Hi Dave,

That die with the fault is believed to be the earliest KC about for that reg 1902ish, I think it was Alan who told me that the regimental museum confirmed this.

Must say that I've seen a couple badges from the cracked die which have made me suspicious... I now think the die may have been or may be in the hands of restrikers. I say this for two reasons, a few of the badges from that die which I have seen lately are super fresh looking (not going 100ish years old as they should be in terms of appearance) and the lugs appeared to be electronically brazed (no overspill whatsoever) and they had feet which should not appear on early lugs... having said that its impossible to say how long the die was in use for but you do notice on different strikes of the badge that the flaw changes in shape and size (obviously becoming more damaged the more strikings have been made from it). Added to this I have seen a brass so-called economy version with the crack when we all know no economy badge existed in WW1 for the BW. These points make me a bit suspicious as to who's hands the die fell into.

Spencer's badge is fine, Alan Owen has a badge from the same die in his Scottish and TA album, it is just a makers variation... obviously that maker had a thing for thistles! lol

Cheers,

Luke

[davec2]

Hello again Luke,
I can't say too much about my O/R's badge because, as you can see, it is one of my own ' infamous ' repairs, I do remember the remains of the old lugs being brazed on and as you call it, overspill !!! I kept it, while waiting for an un-repaired one to come along, on Malcolm's advice ( he then told me of one that he is going for ), tut, tut.
The other is, I believe, a Piper's badge ( chromed ), you can definitely see the braze pool on this one, again, verified by our friend, so I'm hoping that I do have two ' good uns ' !!!!!!!
Perhaps now you've seen them you can offer your thoughts too, please !!!
As usual, all the best.
Dave.

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by davec2

Hello again Luke,
I can't say too much about my O/R's badge because, as you can see, it is one of my own ' infamous ' repairs, I do remember the remains of the old lugs being brazed on and as you call it, overspill !!! I kept it, while waiting for an un-repaired one to come along, on Malcolm's advice ( he then told me of one that he is going for ), tut, tut.
The other is, I believe, a Piper's badge ( chromed ), you can definitely see the braze pool on this one, again, verified by our friend, so I'm hoping that I do have two ' good uns ' !!!!!!!
Perhaps now you've seen them you can offer your thoughts too, please !!!
As usual, all the best.
Dave.

Hi Dave,

Its really hard to say as my opinions on badges from this die are now condition based i.e I want a good stamping, weight, hard as nails badge, signs of bull and importantly age on the back. I'm certain there are plenty of genuine badges from this die however as I said having recently seen a few which looked dodgey has made me slightly wary of accepting every badge from this die as genuine.

Your badges both appear to be good stampings and certainly show signs of bull. The chromed badge was probably done after the badges service life to keep it shiny for longer, I wouldn't necessarily said it has a pipers connection but I may be wrong as I'm not really into the Black Watch or Scottish regiments for that matter. What was the condition of the badge (age wise) before you repaired it? If both badges have a substantial bit of weight to them and are near impossible to bend I'd say they're fine.

Cheers,

Luke

[Alan O]

Back to the original badge. The 'wide fronds' badge design is found on QVC badges as well. The later BW style badges had the short horozontial fronds. I have always thought that the wide fronds was a makers' variation (just as it has the Lacessit spelling where as others have Lacesset), but an early makers variation hence the similarities with the QVC design.

The badge looks genuine to me.

As regards the flawed sphinx badge - there is a photo of this exact badge in Wilkinsons book which was first published using a pre 1970s collection. On this basis it has always been one that i have not rejected out of hand. It may well have been used to restrike badges later on mind you.

Alan

[Sonofacqms]

I have in my collection a Black Watch cap badge which I would say was as flat as any badge in my collection, when I got it both loops were broken off and a large wide copper home-made slider was lead soldered on. It was given to me by my eldest cousin who is now in his late seventies and he collected it as a boy, either pre WWII or during the war. To my mind it is 100% original and it has graced my collection for over fifty years.

As an aside, I had a phone call from my cousin tonight and after a chat about things in general, I asked him about the badges that he gave me some fifty odd years ago. I asked him where he got them and he said my Father had given some of them to him, when he was in the army. As they "what goes round . . !

[lettman]

I know there have been a number of threads dealing with BW badges, but none as far as I can see have addressed this question:
Was the pre-1934 'scrolled' badge worn by any battalion in WW2?
Gaylor says 'I believe that badges continued to be struck from the old die for many years after.' Can anyone confirm this by citing actual examples of its use into WW2? Given the BW's practice of wearing a red hackle as an alternative to the badge, is this even an issue worth bothering about -- in other words, was the badge worn much at all?

[Alan O]

I can only add that I have have read that whilke the Regular Bns changed badges in '34, the TA used up old stock for some years.

Alan

[cbuehler]

The Black Watch could be seen wearing badges dating all the way back to Victorian times and everything in between until their demise a couple of years ago.
Fact is they wore anything they could get away with, and it was very common for soldiers to proudly wear badges passed down from relatives that served in the past, although perhaps they were more strict in this regard 60 or 70 years ago? (certainly not in the past few decades). They did not wear the badge on the tam of course, only on glens or feather bonnets.
The BW were not the only regiment that wore non regulation issue badges of course.

CB

[KLR]

The first BW badge dated to 1882, it only changed to a KC in 1904 and the scroll-less version was authorised in 1938.
That's what the WO recorded anyway, what the unit did is another matter !

[tonyb]

As a budding badge collector in the early 70's, I would stretch my pocket money buying power by sometimes purchasing broken or damaged badges, then soft soldering home made lugs made from copper wire.
One such badge was the die flawed Lacesset badge as mentioned in this old thread.
At the time as a teenager pottering about with my small collection I for some reason found this badge would stick to a magnet.
I still have this badge . It has since been replaced with an intact identical, die flawed badge some 30 years later which I also found magnetic.
Both badges have slight wear due to polishing by original owners and are not plated.
Obviously a high ferrous metal content in material.
I have no other badge with this property and am 100% sure they are not fakes, do any of you guys have the same badge?
Does anyone know of a possible reason for this?
Regards Tony

[rmarsden]

Tony,
this badge is die-struck in steel and nickle plated.
Ron.