Imperial War Museum, Suffolk Badge. - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

thursdaychris · #1 01-02-21, 07:53 PM

Hi All,
I don't know if this has ever come up before, but I wonder if anyone would care to comment on a photo of a three turret Suffolk badge that I've noticed recently. This image can be found by googling " imperial war museum, category, uniforms and insignia, catalogue number INS 5559 "

leigh kitchen · #2 01-02-21, 08:02 PM

Poor quality manufacture, no "twigs" below scroll, die adapted from a two turret version?
Possibly?

Luke H · #3 01-02-21, 08:13 PM

Chris you have 3 like that (from the same die) each with slight variations of voiding. See your first pic in this thread, 3rd row, 2nd and 3rd from left.

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...hlight=Suffolk

And here https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...hlight=Suffolk

What sort of comments are you looking for?

thursdaychris · #4 01-02-21, 08:46 PM

Well, I'm wondering if the IWM really do just take any old badge that happens to be laying about and post it's image on their website, worldwide, as a recognised reference piece for any interested party. If they don't do that, and some thought is given to the images that they portray, then surely some of these badges are worthy of a little more consideration, than they do get at present.

Having reread the above, I should, perhaps, rephrase what I'm trying to say, as my words are not intended to suggest any criticism of the IWM. As a Suffolk collector I am really pleased to see the badge that the IWM have chosen to depict in catalogue number INS 5559. This badge has the regimental pattern, 2 turret castle, to which a centre turret has been added., no sprigs under the scroll and the KC, as well, if this badge is good enough for the IWM, then it's good enough for anyone!

Jelly Terror · #5 01-02-21, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thursdaychris

Well, I'm wondering if the IWM really do just take any old badge that happens to be laying about and post it's image on their website, worldwide, as a recognised reference piece for any interested party. If they don't do that, and some thought is given to the images that they portray, then surely some of these badges are worthy of a little more consideration, than they do get at present.

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...588&highlight=

KLR · #6 01-02-21, 09:44 PM

I'm afraid

thursdaychris · #7 01-02-21, 10:55 PM

I do not want my comment about the IWM to be misunderstood, the text that comes with, catalogue number INS 5559, describes the badge, as the pattern that was worn from 1901-1958. They must, of course, have known exactly which badge they were depicting, and they did not differentiate, in any way, between this badge, and any other 3 turret Suffolk badge in use at the time. I have seen these added turret badges, and the earlier, 2 turret, KC, badges, written off as a mistake, or, some sort of WW1 manufacturing error. However, it does seem, to me, at least, that all of these badges were, in fact, officially manufactured, albeit, in some cases, in great haste, by rather inexperienced makers.

KLR · #8 02-02-21, 08:45 AM

Morning Chris,

thursdaychris · #9 02-02-21, 09:20 AM

I'm afraid that being a one regiment collector does have it's problems, for example, this transition in Suffolk badges from QVC to KC, and 2 turret castles to 3 turret castles, interests me greatly. The sequence of events may be debatable, but, without any doubt, between 1881 and 1901, there was a QVC Suffolk badge with a 2 turret regimental castle. Thereafter, a WO instruction changed the turret design to one having 3 turrets, clearly this was not fully implemented given the existence of so many, 2 turret, KC badges. It may be that it was easier for badge manufacturers at the time, to change the crown, rather than have to redesign the castle. At some stage, however,( WW1, maybe? ) some effort had to be made to produce a badge with 3 turrets. Once again, in the interests of economy, perhaps, the same 2 turret badge design was used, and the turret section was recast, unvoided, with a central turret, cast in. These badges were then drilled in two places, either side of the centre turret, as in the IWM example, INS 5559 and the 3rd example, below.

thursdaychris · #10 02-02-21, 09:42 AM

Hi Julian, our posts must have crossed, I'm afraid that I may be getting a bit OCD about something, yet again. Actually, there doesn't really seem to be that many of the abovementioned badges around anymore. They may well have produced quite a few of them, but some of them were a bit rough, perhaps, and their wearers may well have discarded them when they got their hands on a better made example. I had to get the unvoided badge, above, from Fairview, North Carolina, and the last tracking info that I got, tells me that it has only travelled as far as Erlanger, Kentucky, in the last three weeks!

Luke H · #11 02-02-21, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thursdaychris

Well, I'm wondering if the IWM really do just take any old badge that happens to be laying about and post it's image on their website, worldwide, as a recognised reference piece for any interested party.

Pretty much. They take what’s donated to them. I’ve seen them show several fake badges as their example. Sadly most museums are like that and you cannot rely on a badge simply being in their possession as vindication or guarantee of authenticity. It’s important to understand how and when they got the item.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thursdaychris

I'm afraid that being a one regiment collector does have it's problems, for example, this transition in Suffolk badges from QVC to KC, and 2 turret castles to 3 turret castles, interests me greatly. The sequence of events may be debatable, but, without any doubt, between 1881 and 1901, there was a QVC Suffolk badge with a 2 turret regimental castle. Thereafter, a WO instruction changed the turret design to one having 3 turrets, clearly this was not fully implemented given the existence of so many, 2 turret, KC badges. It may be that it was easier for badge manufacturers at the time, to change the crown, rather than have to redesign the castle. At some stage, however,( WW1, maybe? ) some effort had to be made to produce a badge with 3 turrets. Once again, in the interests of economy, perhaps, the same 2 turret badge design was used, and the turret section was recast, unvoided, with a central turret, cast in. These badges were then drilled in two places, either side of the centre turret, as in the IWM example, INS 5559 and the 3rd example, below.

The sequence of events is I think pretty clear.

Suffolk Regt. Pattern 4565/1897, authorised 02.02.1897. 2 Towered Gibraltar Castle in [Victorian] crowned wreath with title scroll below.

Suffolk Regt. Pattern 4565A/1901, authorised 29.10.1901. Tudor Crown and Castle corrected to 3 Towers as in Gibraltar seal.

The 2 tower KC is a manufacturers mistake pure and simple so cannot be viewed as a transition as such.

As to the date, you can practically guarantee WW1 for its appearance. Several other regiments badges with similar mistakes appeared e.g. Flat topped QVC East Surrey Reg, Regimental Castle Northants etc.

Additionally with such a mistake I doubt in any other time aside from the dire urgency of a war would these have made it to being worn.

Clearly from their rarity the mistake must have been realised quite early on in production and then rectified by re-cutting of the die to add a third (central) tower. The braze holes i.e. lack of, or, poor quality circular ones is all stereotypical of WW1 and rushed manufacturing also found on the Northants badges mentioned above.

The lack of various voids on the added 3rd tower badges is similarly symptomatic of hurried production.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thursdaychris

Actually, there doesn't really seem to be that many of the abovementioned badges around anymore. They may well have produced quite a few of them, but some of them were a bit rough, perhaps, and their wearers may well have discarded them when they got their hands on a better made example.

This is one of the badges discussed above being worn in WW1.

I do not think they were discarded or replaced as they would have had other things to worry about on the Western Front. They are typical of their time and of a standard many other regiments and service battalions were wearing.

Actually there are plenty of this type about. You will see often at least one every month or so on eBay.

thursdaychris · #12 03-02-21, 12:17 PM

Many thanks for your thoughts on this, Luke, as you know, I do have several Suffolk badges now, and I guess to the majority of people these would seem to be, rather boring, uninteresting, little items. In my opinion, however, if just one or two of them can inspire a little discussion, that can only be a good thing. As to these particular Suffolk variants appearing on eBay, fairly frequently, I'm afraid that I must be missing them, every time, as I am constantly searching for them. There is only one dealer that I'm aware of, that has a couple of 2 turret, KC, variants, and he wants £180 for the pair of them.

Luke H · #13 03-02-21, 12:55 PM

I find variants interesting, especially WW1 era ones. So these are of interest to me and I imagine many others too.

Tell whoever is asking £180 for a pair of 2 tower KC Suffolks to go fish.

In my limited time collecting I’ve had several, one for £25, the rest under £40. A little patience will save you a lot of money here.