Royal Naval Hospital

[Roy]

Hello Chaps,

Okay, I will admit it; sometimes I just buy a button for no other reason that it either intrigues me and/or it catches my eye and is appealing.

Well this one fit both of those pre-requisites.

I don't collect Naval buttons but for some reason I just had to have this one, something about the design and I must admit rather liking the big old broad arrow prominently displayed at the top. No backmark, appears to be made of brass and size is quite large at 22.8mm.

Anyway would those who know about these button enlighten me as to what I have purchased?

I'm assuming Royal Naval Hospital but if I'm honest I don't know much more.

Cheers,

Roy.

[Cribyn]

Hello Roy

Not my area but I do believe it is 'Royal Naval Hospital' and an early one as the later buttons had the crown over anchor over 'RNH' rather than the broad arrow at the top. The later ones were still open backed though.

Hopefully a naval type will be along soon and enlighten us both!

Roger

[Charlie 585]

In the meantime here is a thread that discusses similar, of interest is BWEF's post in the thread though it doesn't seem to have been confirmed.

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ghlight=haslar

Use of the search facility will lead you to several similar threads, I used the search term HASLAR after the RN Hospital of that name the site of which is close to me.

Kind regards.

Ry

[GTB]

The 'Anchor RNH' buttons can be found with either a Broad Arrow or a Crown surmounting.
The former is earlier and I have seen examples fetch very high prices. Possibly there may be variations. If I recall correctly, these buttons come in two sizes and were worn by Hospital Staff.
GTB

[Roy]

Hi GTB,

Thank you for that. This one caught my eye patly due to the bold design but also the broad arrow as I had not noticed that prior.

Quite a large button at almost 23mm (22.8).

I think this is a nice example, although having not noted any previously, I'm speaking from a optomisic ignorance..

Cheers, Roy.

[GTB]

Roy

Yes, your button is a superb specimen.
For general interest & reference I am attaching a scan of various Naval Hospital buttons.

The 'Broad Arrow' specimen is approx 22.5mm and has an early backmark (FIRMIN & SONS. 153 STRAND LONDON)

GTB

[Roy]

Hi GTB,

Thank you for that.

Lovely to see more of these, a great group, well done. I guess I will have to keep my eyes open now...

What sort of date do you think my example is? I have a reference of 1820-49 but not really sure.

Here is another pic I just took too.

Cheerio,

Roy.

[GTB]

Roy

I have come across date references ascribing this button to early/mid-19th century. Rowand gives a probable date of 1820. I have not been able to definitively pin down my specimen, one date given for its backmark is 1875, but Firmin is a veritable maze where backmarks/dating is concerned.
GTB

[Guzzman]

Thanks everyone for a most useful discussion - and special thanks to GTB for showing the different types of Naval Hospital button that exist. I have all the types shown in my own collection but I have never been sure who actually wore them.

So were the white metal buttons worn by patients and the 'Anchor RNH' buttons worn by hospital staff? And what staff would have worn them? Presumably any Sick Berth Attendants (SBAs) serving in the hospitals would have worn their own uniforms, so would the 'staff' buttons have been worn by civilians working at the hospital? Naval Hospital Attendants were civilians but had their own uniforms and cap badges, but since their badges were in silver wire I had presumed that they would have worn 'silver' buttons.

And does anyone know when these buttons went out of use?

Been wondering about these buttons for years, so hopefully someone can come up with an answer!

Pete

[GTB]

Hi Guzzman
Thanks for your input. I have snippets of information which are long overdue to be brought together in one place but can' t seem to get round to it so I will resort to memory to help out where I can. Before continuing, may I draw attention to a previous thread on the subject mentioned recently by Charlie 585?

With reference to Rowand ("Some Early English Sea Service Buttons"), the two main types featured in the thread are very briefly touched upon.
1. Broad Arrow 'RNH' button: Naval Hospitals, probably about 1820.
2. Cypher 'NH' in wreath: Naval Hospitals, raised, silver or nickel plated, about 1850

From what I recollect, the 'NH' cypher was utilised on cap badges of Hospital Attendants. This category did not fall under Royal Navy establishment as such, but more broadly under Admiralty, same as Admiralty Police for example. This same cypher is found on my 2 buttons (QVC and KC versions). There are some telling differences between both types. The QVC version appears silver, diameter 22.5mm, backmark 'C & J WELDON. LONDON' while the KC is white metal, 24.5mm dia. backmark 'SMITH & WRIGHT. BIRMINGHAM'. I recall being issued with a blue dressing gown when admitted to RNH Mtarfa in Malta in the 70s and was pleasantly surprised to find that it had two KC NH cypher buttons, so I doubt that the crown was changed to QC pattern, but I stand to be corrected here.

The brass open-backed RNH buttons also have some differences:
The Broad Arrow type is 22.5mm dia, backmark 'FIRMIN & SONS. 153 STRAND LONDON' while the KC type is slightly smaller, 22mm, backmark 'FIRMIN. LONDON'. The smaller button is 17mm dia, backmark 'SMITH & WRIGHT. B'HAM'. I don't know if the Broad Arrow version also came in this size; probably not, as uniforms would most likely have changed through time.

It is my opinion that the NH cypher buttons could have been worn by patients and possibly senior/officer ranks while the RNH buttons by staff.

I look forward to further information on this subject.

GTB

[GTB]

Following are 2 links to Hospital Staff at RNH Bighi Malta at turn of century. Great pics that can afford good research.

http://www.maltaramc.com/imghosps/bi...pstaff1900.jpg

http://www.maltaramc.com/imghosps/bighistaff1900.jpg

GTB

[Mike B]

Many thanks for this interesting thread - I thought the attached may be of interest taken from EC Coleman Rank and Rate Vol ii. I once saw a 1922-39 Attendant badge in an auction lot, but was unable to acquire it. Thank you for the high quality images in this thread - very informative.
Mike

[Cribyn]

Hello Mike

Thanks for that very useful image.

It almost certainly confirms GTB's recollection that the buttons with 'NH' on them were worn by Naval Hospital Attendants.

Now all we need to do is work out the buttons worn on the people in those two photos! At least two different types of button can be seen, one shiny, one dull. Not much to go on!

Roger

[GTB]

Originally Posted by Cribyn

Hello Mike

Thanks for that very useful image.

It almost certainly confirms GTB's recollection that the buttons with 'NH' on them were worn by Naval Hospital Attendants.

Now all we need to do is work out the buttons worn on the people in those two photos! At least two different types of button can be seen, one shiny, one dull. Not much to go on!

Roger

I think I'll start the ball rolling on the 2 photos.
They are captioned as Bighi Hospital Staff 1900, but I think the date is a little bit later, as the cap badges show a KC.

The cap badges for both rates and officers are the Royal Navy pattern, with fouled anchor centre. I recently read somewhere that Hospital Staff were dressed 'not as seamen' and wore black buttons. A look at the photos show what appear as black (horn) buttons and by inference I would say the officers are wearing gilt pattern RN buttons.

Hospital Attendants were not Royal Navy and are not included in the photos. If they were, I would expect their brass RNH buttons to be sparkling!

GTB

[Roy]

Hi Chaps,

I wanted to revive this old thread for no other reason than to share a recent find that is pertinent.

The button you see is clearly much later (being Kings Crown) than the Victorian example that started this thread but since I have seen the other fine examples shared by members, I thought I would keep my eyes open and just found this beauty to keen my other example company.

Cheerio,

Roy.