Rifle Brigade intermediate size badge Possible Break through

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by Charlie 585

Thanks Keith,

I know I've been a bit like a dog with a bone with regard to this badge and its origins though obvious fakes and copies aside I think that this image is the nearest that we are likely to get to conclusive proof of its being worn in service as opposed to it being a mere fantasy, as I am convinced that it is not in this case KK703.

I whole heartedly accept that there are a number of fantasy badges out there of course but I will continue to look for further proof with regard to this one.

Regards

Ry

Giving it a bit of though, being NCO's and representing the regiment as a shooting team there could be the possibility of them being given upgraded officers badges for the day to wear or possibly casts made from one. Unlikely though and still doesn't answer the question about the pattern No.

I got one of those FN HM'd badges the other day, being sold as a brooch so as you can imagine dirt cheap. That maker certainly skimped on the amount of silver used, it's the thinnest cast badge I've ever seen!

[Charlie 585]

Originally Posted by Keith Blakeman

Giving it a bit of though, being NCO's and representing the regiment as a shooting team there could be the possibility of them being given upgraded officers badges for the day to wear or possibly casts made from one. Unlikely though and still doesn't answer the question about the pattern No.

I got one of those FN HM'd badges the other day, being sold as a brooch so as you can imagine dirt cheap. That maker certainly skimped on the amount of silver used, it's the thinnest cast badge I've ever seen!

I'm not aware of the FN HM'd badge you speak of Keith, a picture paints a thousand words...............(*Correction, it is the badge I showed on post #1 sorry Keith, mine was a fairly heavy example)

To return to the badge I have highlighted in this thread your thoughts on it being a locally produced badge are worthy of note and I have a theory which I will share in the hope that it is not regarded as pie in the sky concerning that.

Bearing in mind that the image was taken in India it is possible that the NCOs had the badges made locally for wear in country.

Could it though also be possible that the pattern was intended only for use in India. We have had an example that may support this recently in member Monty's thread with regard to the 1910 pattern RB KK705 badge. As well as this I recall Julian passing comment on the rare looped version of that badge which he stated was designated for use up until 1914 on the FSC worn in India. This would point of course to Monty's badge being a post 1914 badge, probably for use on the Pagri.

Would the difference in the sequence of sealed pattern numbers bear this theory out, that certain badges including the intermediate size Guelphic crown badge were intended for wear by the regiment in India alone.

Also was there any official production carried out in India itself, this might also explain the badge's existence and lack of confirmation of a sealed pattern other than that which I have identified and put forward as a suggestion. This is uncharted territory for me I have to admit so I would welcome the views of those who may have knowledge in this area.

As a side note, I have referred to the badges by their K&K designations for ease of identity here on a collectors forum which I know grates on some who are serious researchers, I hope this doesn't put them off of contributing to this debate though and sharing their knowledge with us in the hope of us getting to the bottom of this matter.

Link to Monty's thread: http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=52135

Image below is KK705 on Loops for wear on the FSC

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by Charlie 585

I'm not aware of the FN HM'd badges you speak of Keith, a picture paints a thousand words...............

To return to the badge I have highlighted in this thread your thoughts on it being a locally produced badge are worthy of note and I have a theory which I will share in the hope that it is not regarded as pie in the sky concerning that.

Bearing in mind that the image was taken in India it is possible that the NCOs had the badges made locally for wear in country.

Could it though also be possible that the pattern was intended only for use in India. We have had an example that may support this recently in member Monty's thread with regard to the 1910 pattern RB KK705 badge. As well as this I recall Julian passing comment on the rare looped version of that badge which he stated was designated for use up until 1914 on the FSC worn in India. This would point of course to Monty's badge being a post 1914 badge, probably for use on the Pagri.

Would the difference in the sequence of sealed pattern numbers bear this theory out, that certain badges including the intermediate size Guelphic crown badge were intended for wear by the regiment in India alone.

Also was there any official production carried out in India itself, this might also explain the badge's existence and lack of confirmation of a sealed pattern other than that which I have identified and put forward as a suggestion. This is uncharted territory for me I have to admit so I would welcome the views of those who may have knowledge in this area.

As a side note, I have referred to the badges by their K&K designations for ease of identity here on a collectors forum which I know grates on some who are serious researchers, I hope this doesn't put them off of contributing to this debate though and sharing their knowledge with us in the hope of us getting to the bottom of this matter.

I'll have to check the old thread for Monty's badge but I have something similar. It's an odd size at 44mm for KK705 (apologies for not having the SP reference, KK is how my files are named but one day I will get around to changing them) but it must have been cast from something.

Also attached a similar KRRC badge, I'd say without a doubt a cast made from a QVC for the bottom section of KK673 and married to an oversized and wonky KC.

Finally the Fredrick Narborough HM'd (1893) KK588 Officers pagri badge.

[Alan O]

Whilst we are on the references one point about the badge's intended use. It would not be sealed as a pattern only for use in India or a location: but by its intended headgear.

So it might be sealed as a Field Service Cap badge and/or a Foreign Service Helmet badge which would mean that it was worn in India but it could also have been worn in any hot climate or order of dress where that type of hat was used.

Greta bit of research all the same. Well done.

[Charlie 585]

Thanks for posting those images Keith, it is nice to see that FN Pagri badge (*which is as the one I showed in post#1), it is a stunner, though I agree it doesn't appear to be the most substantial of examples, easily mistaken and priced as a sweetheart I agree which has worked in your favour on this occasion, well done.

The inclusion of cast badges into the mix does though risk muddying the waters somewhat in regard to the main topic of this thread but I accept the relevance of them even though it points to the continued belief that the die stamped intermediate badge is no more than a lesser copy of an officer's badge which I strongly believe is not the case here.

Kind regards

Ry

[Charlie 585]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Whilst we are on the references one point about the badge's intended use. It would not be sealed as a pattern only for use in India or a location: but by its intended headgear.

So it might be sealed as a Field Service Cap badge and/or a Foreign Service Helmet badge which would mean that it was worn in India but it could also have been worn in any hot climate or order of dress where that type of hat was used.

Greta bit of research all the same. Well done.

Thank you Alan,

That makes perfect sense and reinforces my theory somewhat with regard to the SP question, the badge was then in my estimation possibly sealed as an alternative FSC badge.

Regards

Ry

[Charlie 585]

Originally Posted by Charlie 585

The inclusion of cast badges into the mix does though risk muddying the waters somewhat in regard to the main topic of this thread but I accept the relevance of them even though it points to the continued belief that the die stamped intermediate badge is no more than a lesser copy of an officer's badge which I strongly believe is not the case here.Ry

I'll go along with this tangent to show the links between the silver badge on the right of the image in post #5 (shown again below) and those that you show Keith.

Both this badge and Keiths KRRC cast example have issues with their crowns in that they were both applied after construction. This can be seen in the second image below on the reverse of the badge. The reason being that it started life as an example of the Guelphic crown Pagri badge that Keith and I have shown, though an unmarked one.

It has been converted to the pattern (whilst in service I presume) of the WM badge that accompanies it in the image. This being the cap size KC four scroll badge that shares the same pattern but not scale as,

KK704 Sealed Pattern 4091B 28th May 1902 FSC, or,

KK704 Sealed Pattern 4091C 17th September 1904 Pagri,

but which has no confirmed SP number of its own, along with the bronze version which exists.

A point to note is the difference in the crowns on the central boss of each badge, KC & QVC.

There is photographic evidence of this badge being worn in service in Malta in early years of the 20th century and could it possibly have been made there? Maybe not - but given the lack of any official documentation - another RB badge anomaly that awaits an answer.