lace

[GTB]

Would be grateful to have this lace identified and confirmed.
The wider lace with 3 narrow black stripes is 55mm. The single wider black stripe version is 37mm. Other versions vary in width according to number of black stripes.
Thanks
GTB

[David Tremain]

RCN - Royal Canadian Navy perhaps?

David

[RCN]

Its the modern Canadian Armed Forces officer's sleeve lace, If the colour between the gold is black its RCN, if its green its Army.

The two bands represent Lieut (RCN) & the 4 bands Captain (RCN)

RCN Bryan

[GTB]

Thanks, David & Bryan,
With your help I'm on the right track. However, I need to clarify something.
The coloured braid is Black. Did not the Navy have an executive curl on uppermost lace band?
I have attached the present range I have and one can notice that the band with single narrow black braid has wider lace than all the others.
What would the 4 ranks now be?
Thanks
GTB

[RCN]

Hi GTB,

I will give you a little 'history' of our RCN so these ranks will fit into the correct time frame -

The "old" RCN of pre 1968 was the RCN that was formed in May 1910 & wore insignia identical to that of the RN. The officers wore the curl above their sleeve lace. The lace was embroidered in gold wire.

In 1968 our government of the day decided on a policy of integrating all of our three services into one force, to be called the CAF (Canadian Armed Forces) & this was to take place gradually over the next 2 yrs where all of the three forces were to lose their tri service identity & become one - ie: they were to wear one common green uniform. Thus the RCN became the CAF(N). In 1970 the uniforms changed to this common green uniform & the insignia worn was identical for all three former services. The Officers were to wear gold embroidered sleeve lace similar to that formerly worn by the "old" RCN except it was to be of a synthetic material - I think it was nylon or rayon, it came in single lengths & was sewn on the cuffs of the uniform.

Around the early 1980's the sleeve lace became issued in sections - ie: Lieut had both the lace bands together with a green band in the centre, a Major would have had two wide bands & one thin band between the two & with green space between etc.
I don't know exactly when this change was made as I was out by hthen.

Then approx. 1984 (now I may have this yr incorrect as 1988 sticks in my mind also) the new government of the day decided to separate the three forces again & return them to their original colours, so the Navy returned to black & the Air returned to a sky blue uniform. the Army retained the green uniform but later moved to a tan uniform for summer dress.
So now the sleeve lace for officers had a different colour between the gold bands.

In 2010 (on the 100th anniversary of the RCN) our present gov't decided to return to the "Royal" designations again.
So the CAF(N) became Royal Canadian Navy, & at the same time the Executive curl above the lace was returned - so now the RCN was wearing basically what we wore back in pre 1970 days. But now the Officer's sleeve ranks are all synthetic material, not the gold wire lace of the "old" navy.

I expect the lace you have appears to be the 1984-88 pattern when the RCN went back to their black uniforms.

The Naval Officer ranks only changed briefly to the Army ranks in 1968 - thus a Naval Captain became a Colonel. However the gov't of the day realized this was nonsense & permitted the CAF(N) to return to their original ranks. They have retained their original ranks since then - so 4 bands of lace was & is a Navy Captain.

Hope this assists you !

Bryan

[RCN]

The ranks you have are:

4 bands of lace - Captain RCN

3 bands of lace - Commander RCN

2 bands of lace - Lieutenant RCN

I don't know why the bottom two bands of lace appear wider & the space between them is greater. I expect tho it might be a different contractor that made this lace set. The gov't would let out contracts to have the insignia manufactured from time to time & perhaps this was contractor was not following the printed specifications exactly.

B

[peter monahan]

It may also be the case that the narrower lace and spacing is meant to fit the rank marking more easily onto the lower sleeve without it stretching halfway to the elbow!

[RCN]

This will give you more information on the changes in the CAF over the years:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Former_...anadian_Forces

& this is the insignia being worn currently in the CAF:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadia...s_and_insignia

& here are illustrations of more CAF insignia over the years:

https://www.google.ca/search?q=canad...m%3B1400%3B858

B

[GTB]

Thanks, Peter and thankyou again Bryan for a very comprehensive and time-consuming answer.

What I can further say is that the items were acquired sometime in the early 2000s along with several similar lengths of what appears to be RAF rank lace (I will now have to check if this is also Canadian!!) and a huge pile of medal ribbons, mainly British but with Commonwealth specimens among them.
The gold lace thread appears to be very thin gold wire.
The dimensions of the insignia is as follows (top to bottom):
1. 4 bands of lace, 55mm overall - gold 10mm, black 5mm
2. 3 bands of lace, 40mm overall - gold 10mm, black 5mm
3. 2 bands of lace, 35mm overall - gold 14mm, black 6mm
4. 2 bands of lace, 37mm overall - gold 12mm, black 13mm
A closer look at the gold lace of No. 4 will show a different pattern to the other three.

I will now trawl through the data and see what I can come up with

GTB

[RCN]

Hi GTB,

I may have the dates off somewhat in my description above. I was operating from memory & unfortunately that is not all it used to be!

I was talking to another RCN vet this morning & he thinks the Executive curl came back in on the 100th Anniversary of the RCN in 2010, but the title ROYAL Canadian Navy was re instituted in 2012 (last yr) & I think that's is correct.

Also the change to the black uniforms for the CAF(N) took place in 1985.

B

[RCN]

Originally Posted by GTB

Thanks, Peter and thankyou again Bryan for a very comprehensive and time-consuming answer.

similar lengths of what appears to be RAF rank lace (I will now have to check if this is also Canadian!!) and a huge pile of medal ribbons, mainly British but with Commonwealth specimens among them.
The gold lace thread appears to be very thin gold wire.
GTB

The RCAF rank lace should have a sky blue material between the bands of lace.

I don't think the current CAF lace is of gold wire. I think its a synthetic material but I have not had any 'in hand' so not 100% on that.

B

[GTB]

Thanks for further info, Bryan.

While on the subject of lace I am posting this example of wartime Merchant Navy lace to a Chief Officer (Certified). It clearly shows the method of constructing the superimposed diamond. Of course at the time the lace bands were separately applied to the uniform cloth and one can see the perfect alignment of each band. One can also see the contrast between the RCN lace and this one, not so much in the pattern but in the colour. Obtained from a now-defunct Naval Tailor in the early 70s, together with other wartime RN cloth badges. Sadly, such outlets are now a thing of the past.

GTB

[RCN]

Yes, I have had examples of the MM lace, & also the Engineer variety with the purple colour between the bands.

The 'old' RCN/RCNVR/RCNR lace was similar to this - ie: hand or machine sewn onto the sleeves individually, it would have taken some skill on part of the tailor to get them spaced correctly & also to make the curl above. I have been told they had a 'matrix' to form this curl but have never seen one so don't know how accurate this might be.

I could take some photos of some of the uniform lace in my collection to show if you wish,

but I don't have any modern CAF lace to show you,

B

edit - I have att'd two from my collection that I have on file - these were the pre 1968 RCN uniforms:

[GTB]

Originally Posted by RCN

I don't know why the bottom two bands of lace appear wider & the space between them is greater. I expect tho it might be a different contractor that made this lace set. The gov't would let out contracts to have the insignia manufactured from time to time & perhaps this was contractor was not following the printed specifications exactly.

B

Bryan,
Reading further, I came across info to the effect that the Royal Canadian Navy Reserve had narrower lace than the regular RCN. So could this perhaps be the answer?
GTB

[RCN]

Yes the RCNR lace was a braid type of lace & it was narrower than the RCN straight lace, also the RCNVR lace was I think 3/8" in width. I will check.

Both the wartime RCNR & RCNVR were abolished in 1946 & became the new RCN{R} & from that time on they wore the straight sleeve lace.

I will try to find some RCNR & RCNVR examples & post,

However the lace examples you have posted are definitely modern lace.

B