British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > British Military Insignia > General Topics.

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #46  
Old 21-08-16, 07:33 PM
Carnforth Carnforth is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 54
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan O View Post
Royal Signals dress regulations specify SNCO's sashes are dark blue not red.

Not to say that some numpty did not wear a red one in error but he would be very wrong.
I not trying to be adversarial here - I haven't read Royal Signals dress regs.

But I would expect them to refer not to a uniform item for all Sgts and WOs but only to a duty sash when performing regimental duties, and as such not rank specific because as I understand it, Cpls sometimes do wear it when orderly corporal.

But it also begs another question, if Royal Signals Sgts and WOs all wear red sashes on Public Duties at Buckingham Palace which they do, surely that's contrary to their own dress regs?
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 21-08-16, 09:12 PM
rizzo's Avatar
rizzo rizzo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Ellesmere Port
Posts: 31
Default

Hi Toby,
I hope you don't mind me, as a newbie on here, making an observation about your picture. The two men wearing the sashes are wearing the insignia of Warrant Officers Class 2. The guy on the left without a sash wears no insignia on his sleeves, but notice the fancy epaulettes, and different cap badge. he appears to be an officer and as such would wear a Sam Browne.
Rizzo.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 22-08-16, 05:19 AM
Carnforth Carnforth is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 54
Default

Hi Rizzo,
I think you are on track regarding the warrant officer detail.
There's a remarkably similar trio photo on this site (link below).

I believe is was because at that time, only the Sergeant Major and the Band Master were appointed warrant officers; and the regimental school master had the same status, although wasn't badged as such. Army Schoolmasters wore the Queen Victoria crown as a cap badge. (anyone own one?)

The major difference with these photos and Toby's picture of the Northamptonshire Regt WOs and Schoolmaster is that the sergeants and WOs on these pictures are not wearing the infantry sash - this is because they were a rifle regiment and not infantry of the line, (a tradition maintained today by The Rifles and the Royal Gurkha Rifles).

http://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/RoyalIrishRifles2nd.htm

Last edited by Carnforth; 22-08-16 at 07:23 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 22-08-16, 08:27 AM
Alan O's Avatar
Alan O Alan O is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,729
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnforth View Post
I not trying to be adversarial here - I haven't read Royal Signals dress regs.

But I would expect them to refer not to a uniform item for all Sgts and WOs but only to a duty sash when performing regimental duties, and as such not rank specific because as I understand it, Cpls sometimes do wear it when orderly corporal.

But it also begs another question, if Royal Signals Sgts and WOs all wear red sashes on Public Duties at Buckingham Palace which they do, surely that's contrary to their own dress regs?
The Regtl Duty sash is indeed in Blue and made with a Royal Signals Mercury on the front. It's a regtl practice and wear is by no means universal. Often worn by provost staff and sometimes by the Duty Sgt. Orderly Cpls would not generally wear one but Provost Cpls will do so at times. Again regtl practice and the Signals has lots more regts than the Inf Bns do so.

The red sash has been worn on blues for ceremonial and were worn at the Palace when the Corps mounted wearing Blues a few years ago - blue on blue really would not work would it? Likewise depending on the occasion you may see green belts being worn on FAD but pool-loan white belts have also been worn on parades. Dress regs are flexible and change all the time. For example up until a few years ago Signals officers wore a Sam Browne in No1 dress. They now wear crossbelts. What changed? The SOinC at the time.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 22-08-16, 02:46 PM
Carnforth Carnforth is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 54
Default

Alan
Thanks for the detail of the duty sash as worn by Royal Signals.

However, the incongruity of a corps with 'mounted' antecedents and accoutrements wearing the Infantry Sgts sash by all WOs and Sgts as a parade uniform either Buckingham Palace or anywhere else , is something one either accepts or not.

Clearly, it's something that the Army Board accepts, (the incongruity, that is) hence the 'permitted list' in Clothing Regs quoted earlier in the thread.

We are not going to agree on the points in your second paragraph so for the sake of harmony, especially as a newcomer to the forum, I won't address them.

I do hope the thread continues though as it's thrown up one or two things of interest, for example, Army Schoolmasters.
Regards

Last edited by Carnforth; 22-08-16 at 02:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 22-08-16, 03:54 PM
grumpy grumpy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,456
Default

What are the "mounted antecedents" of the R Sigs please?

They are descended from the RE.

Some of the RE were indeed mounted, many were not. As witness both "trumpeters" and "buglers" authorised for RE. Then again, RE had "companies".

Truth to tell the R Sigs can reasonably claim foot and horse ancestry, surely?

However, I for one am not at all relaxed about the scarlet sash being permitted beyond the infantry, as it certainly bucks tradition.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 22-08-16, 04:31 PM
ddaydodger ddaydodger is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Calgary Alberta
Posts: 443
Default In Canada

SASHES
28. These accoutrements indicate rank and authority.

29. Officer and CWO Rank
a. Approved officer rank sashes (worn also by CWOs) are authorized for wear with Royal Military College (RMC), infantry, and air force full dress (No. 1B), and all army undress, (optional Nos. 1C and 1D – authorized for wear by RMC officer cadets and the Militia only) where cross belts are not worn.
b. Officers and CWOs shall wear waist sashes fastened on the left hip, except those in kilted units, who wear sashes over the left shoulder falling off the right hip.
c. Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry officers and CWOs and those in kilted units may wear sashes while carrying swords with No. 1 order of dress.

30. Warrant Officer and Sergeant Rank Sashes

a. Approved warrant officer and sergeant shoulder rank sashes are authorized for wear with RMC, infantry, and air force (see subparagraph 31.b.) ceremonial orders of dress at all times, and with No. 2B mess service dress and Nos. 3 and 3B service orders while on unit duty in accordance with environmental and regimental policy.
b. The shoulder sash is worn from the right shoulder falling off the left hip, unless worn in conjunction with a Scottish broad sword shoulder belt, when it is worn from the left shoulder falling to the right. Sashes are worn over trouser and waist belts, and over greatcoats and topcoats when a waist belt is also worn overall as a ceremonial accoutrement.

31. Sash Colours
a. RMC and army sashes are crimson or scarlet, depending on the rank group, except
as noted:
(1) the RMC cadet wing commander wears a crimson sash with gold tassels;

(2) foot guard officers wear a crimson and gold sash on state occasions; and

(3) officers of Les Fusiliers Mont-Royal wear a “flechée” sash.

b. Air force sashes are deep maroon and only worn by pipe band members.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 22-08-16, 04:36 PM
Carnforth Carnforth is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 54
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by grumpy View Post
What are the "mounted antecedents" of the R Sigs please?

They are descended from the RE.

Some of the RE were indeed mounted, many were not. As witness both "trumpeters" and "buglers" authorised for RE. Then again, RE had "companies".

Truth to tell the R Sigs can reasonably claim foot and horse ancestry, surely?

However, I for one am not at all relaxed about the scarlet sash being permitted beyond the infantry, as it certainly bucks tradition.
It's a good question, my belief is that it was because the RE Signal Service was designated 'Mounted' - however at the moment I can't find a reference to confirm that.
The following may be of interest, though;
This is from the MOD Army site regarding the Royal Signals Corps Band

Quote:
One point on which everyone was in agreement was that the Band should follow the cavalry pattern as the Corps was officially still classed as a mounted outfit. In 1926 the dress for the band was approved by the Corps Committee as:
•Hussar busby with black bag and red plume, ornated by a large gilt Signals badge, underlined by 'Certa Cito'
•Scarlet tunic, black piping, black cuffs, edged with gold braid, with chevrons also in gold braid
•A black webbing waist girdle
•Black arguillettes, worn from the left shoulder
•Overalls, blue, with broad red stripe
•Wellington dress boots, with swan necked spurs affixed
Busby, Girdle, broad overalls stripe and spurs all indicate mounted origins
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 23-08-16, 04:38 PM
Carnforth Carnforth is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 54
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnforth View Post
It's a good question, my belief is that it was because the RE Signal Service was designated 'Mounted' - however at the moment I can't find a reference to confirm that.
It's not a definitive reference but it does indicate that at least some of the RE
Signals Service formations were classified as mounted.

Quote:
The first photograph was of John Revie as a Pioneer, newly enlisted into the Royal Engineers in 1916. This was a postcard photograph of a clean-shaven John Revie in a new uniform, complete with riding crop and spurs typical of a soldier during the Great War period who served in a mounted unit.
John Revie served in the Signal Service in a unit monitoring enemy communications. Pioneer, his rank on entry, was the norm for unqualified recruit into the RE at the time, he became a Sapper upon qualifying in his signals trade.
I would expect that his uniform of bandolier, riding crop and spurs, with different insignia would have been the same for his Royal Corps of Signals counterpart after 1920.

http://www.reubique.com/210903.htm

Last edited by Carnforth; 23-08-16 at 05:19 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 13-03-17, 01:48 PM
Toby Purcell's Avatar
Toby Purcell Toby Purcell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Completed colour service and retired
Posts: 3,202
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rizzo View Post
Hi Toby,
I hope you don't mind me, as a newbie on here, making an observation about your picture. The two men wearing the sashes are wearing the insignia of Warrant Officers Class 2. The guy on the left without a sash wears no insignia on his sleeves, but notice the fancy epaulettes, and different cap badge. he appears to be an officer and as such would wear a Sam Browne.
Rizzo.
Rather a late reply I am afraid, rizzo, but the two infantry warrant officers are shown with the original WOs badge before the rank grouping was divided into two classes in 1915, i.e. a plain crown. The Schoolmaster is a WO too, but as the member of a departmental corps (and non-combatant) his dress regulations did not permit the red infantry sash (much as other corps may not like it, that is what it is....the infantry sash). Instead, a Schoolmaster ranking as a WO (usually towards the end of his career), wore a bullion wire (gilt) shoulder knot to mark his status.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 07-07-17, 06:09 AM
Carnforth Carnforth is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 54
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by L1A1 View Post
Hello all

I was watching a video on another website of members of the Army Air Corps mounting guard at Windsor Castle.

I noticed that both the sergeant and the warrant officer were wearing red sashes. Until now, I thought that only sergeants and warrant officers of infantry regiments wore the sashes.

Could anyone explain why the AAC SNCO's/WO's do the same?

many thanks

L1A1
Perhaps someone in AAC has finally gotten around to reading dress regulations.
No sign of sashes worn on their recent presentation of a guidon to celebrate their 60th anniversary.


http://http://www.itv.com/news/meridian/update/2017-07-06/prince-charles-celebrates-army-air-corps-60th-anniversary/



Edited to add;

Perhaps guidon is a clue why the infantry sergeants sash is not part of their dress regs

Last edited by Carnforth; 07-07-17 at 09:38 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

mhs link

All times are GMT. The time now is 03:26 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.