Wearing the red sash

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by Rordog95

My dad was an apprentice tradesman Sgt and wore one, can also confirm the use of Blue sashes at Harrogate. He was the A/T BSM aswell, will ask him if he wore one then.

He would have done as the a/t drum major and a/t pipe major would have done.That is if there was one appointed at the time.

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by jeep

At AAS Arborfield, A/T/CSM and A/TSgts (there were no A/T/SSgts) wore the red sash on parade only. The A/T/RSM wore a Sam Browne.

This is an interesting one,i have a strange feeling that the RSM decided the dress for the a/t RSM . I say this as my first RSM was an Irish Guard,he wore jumper in the winter,shirt sleeves in the summer with barrack dress trousers.But the second RSM was a Coldstreamer who wore No2`s in the winter and shirt sleeves in the summer,his summer dress was shoes ,no2 trousers,sam browne and shirt.This form of dress is an exceptable form of dress in the Guards.

The a/t RSM wore the same as the RSM,this could be a right pain if you had pt during the day.

[jeep]

This is an interesting one,i have a strange feeling that the RSM decided the dress for the a/t RSM . I say this as my first RSM was an Irish Guard,he wore jumper in the winter,shirt sleeves in the summer with barrack dress trousers.But the second RSM was a Coldstreamer who wore No2`s in the winter and shirt sleeves in the summer,his summer dress was shoes ,no2 trousers,sam browne and shirt.This form of dress is an exceptable form of dress in the Guards.

Mike. It sounds like you are referring to RSM J Stewart IG and RSM H Simpson CG. They served at Arborfield from Jun 1960 - Jan 1963 and Jan 1963 - Apr 1966 respectively. A long time ago so my memory is dulled somewhat, but I think the A/T RSM wore the same working dress as everyone else at the time. I may be wrong.

[54Bty]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Not sure what point you are making 54Bty?

I was not making any point, just continuing the previous postings of the various regulations covering the Red Sash. I will not post on the subject again.

Marc

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by jeep

Mike. It sounds like you are referring to RSM J Stewart IG and RSM H Simpson CG. They served at Arborfield from Jun 1960 - Jan 1963 and Jan 1963 - Apr 1966 respectively. A long time ago so my memory is dulled somewhat, but I think the A/T RSM wore the same working dress as everyone else at the time. I may be wrong.

I wasn't reffering to arborfield,I was reffering aac harrogate 80-83.paddy o'connor and lionel bailey.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by 54Bty

I was not making any point, just continuing the previous postings of the various regulations covering the Red Sash. I will not post on the subject again.

Marc

No offence meant Marc and if any was taken I apologise. Your posts are always very welcome and I for one have learned a lot from them. I was just trying to clarify if you were suggesting that other arms can now wear scarlet sashes with official sanction. Clearly you were not.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Graham Stewart

No mate - didn't misunderstand, was just sorry that I didn't have any later copies of KR's to assist in the batting on your behalf.

Roger out.....

[oc14]

Originally Posted by Mike H

I wasn't reffering to arborfield,I was reffering aac harrogate 80-83.paddy o'connor and lionel bailey.

I hade the pleasure of knowing Paddy Connor when he was RSM at Harrogate - my brother was AT RSM for two terms in 1979/80 and commanded two pass off parades as well as winning the Master of Signals Award for best all round Apprentice. I believe that only one other Apprectice Tradesman had ever held the RSM post for 2 terms.

PL

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by oc14

I hade the pleasure of knowing Paddy Connor when he was RSM at Harrogate - my brother was AT RSM for two terms in 1979/80 and commanded two pass off parades as well as winning the Master of Signals Award for best all round Apprentice. I believe that only one other Apprectice Tradesman had ever held the RSM post for 2 terms.

PL

i may have known him then,i joined as 80c intake and left at the end of 83a.Im trying to think of the a/t RSM`s that were there in my time.I wonder if the honours board is still in the cinema ?

[Carnforth]

Please accept my apologies for resurrecting a long dormant thread and also this being a rather long-winded first post from a newly registered, but long term, reader of the forum.

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Red sashes are and have been for generations for the infantry and associated Corps (RM (from RMLI) SASC, RAPTC and AAC) only, as per clothing regulations for the Army. All other wearers are doing so illegally. That is not to say that a blind eye is not turned, but the fact remains that it is illegal.

I do so agree with the above (less the AAC bit ! )

There is so much mis-understood, even in today's army regarding the Infantry Sgts Sash.
One is the myth that passing the Guards Drill Course qualifies the wearer- like many army myths, it falls down on logic. Do they not wonder that, if it's a qualification of the course, why do some attendees start the course wearing the Infantry Sgts sash, like, er infantry sgts?

Another myth (one that unfortunately seems to have become a reality) is that you are allowed to wear the sash if you are on public duties even though it is not part of your regiment or corps uniform regs.

The Royal Signals are culprits in this, despite the RSigs being a 'mounted' corps by descent and wearing the wide 'cavalry' stripe on their trousers and subalterns wearing spurs and cross-belts.

I've also seen a video of Royal Artillery Sgts/WO2s (probably TA/Reserve)wearing the sash at a Palace Guard mounting, something that would put old school RSMs at the former RA Depot, Woolwich in danger of apoplexy.

It is quite true that the Army Air Corps has Glider Pilot Regiment antecedents but they also inherit the Royal Artillery distinctions via the Air Observation Pilots.
I would suggest that the Army Air Corps do not have the infantry sash as part of their uniform for the following reasons;
1 The AAC are not included in the Army Clothing Regs quoted in an earlier post.
2. The sash is not worn by AAC on formal parades other than Public Duties.
3. There is a clash between their 'mounted' accoutrements and an Infantry sash.
(The only exception to this I know, and there may be others I am not aware of, is the wearing of the broad mounted trouser stripe by the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, passed down from the distinction awarded to the Royal Fusiliers for their association with protecting the Artillery trains )

So why do they wear it on public duties? Partly through lack of knowledge of the uniform traditions and also perhaps the army has changed its outlook from;
" We do this/ wear this because we (our regiment/corps) are different to anyone else"
to "What they are wearing looks rather nice, can we wear it, too?"

It may be of interest to the OP that Commonwealth armies such as Australia and Canada, seem to stick closer
to the British traditions of the Infantry Sgts sash than the British do.

[tynesideirish]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Red sashes are and have been for generations for the infantry and associated Corps (RM (from RMLI) SASC, RAPTC and AAC) only, as per clothing regulations for the Army. All other wearers are doing so illegally. That is not to say that a blind eye is not turned, but the fact remains that it is illegal.

As they are presumebly authorized at unit or sub unit level, that would be classed as colonels perogative. Such as Battery staplebelts worn in barracks only. Wearing them outwith the barrack area , well that would be Incorrectly dressed at worst surely, but illegal? Really?

[Paul Spellman]

ACC WO's and SNCO's wore a red sash when performing Corps/Regtl Duties.
The ACC apprentices did also see image, it was common practice for other Corps I came across that when on Regimental duty a red sash would be worn.
Paul

[chief_chum]

I have two original pre-Great War sashes, one that belonged to Drum Major George Ball, 2/Suffolk and another that belonged to Sergeant Fred Pye, 1/Suffolk.
I had always thought that a Sergeants sash should be red, but both are crimson.
Jack Hind, who served with 1/Suffolk just after the war said that the post war Sergeants sashes were bright red but pre-war sashes were crimson as the scarlet didn't stand out on a scarlet jacket.
I've no idea if that is true but Fred's Sergeants sash was certainly not scarlet.

[Carnforth]

Originally Posted by tynesideirish

As they are presumebly authorized at unit or sub unit level, that would be classed as colonels perogative. Such as Battery staplebelts worn in barracks only. Wearing them outwith the barrack area , well that would be Incorrectly dressed at worst surely, but illegal? Really?

Yes, illegal is a bit imprecise, 'Contrary to dress regulations' would be more accurate.

The wearing of the Infantry Sgt's Sash as a uniform distinction, that is as worn by all sgts and WOs, is pretty well defined, Infantry (less Rifles) and the infantry derived corps - RAPTC, SASC, SAS is pretty well defined in clothing regs. Any other formation parading with sgts/wos all wearing sashes is not covered by their arm/corps dress regulations and so would be wrong.

Of course, the waters are muddied by having the sash used as a duty sash in some units whereby the orderly sgt wears a sash on the day that he is doing that duty. A sash is as good as anything to denote that, although it wasn't universal - obviously it would be pointless in an infantry battalion.

I was once a guest in a RA Sgt's mess and queried why the Ord Sgt didn't wear a sash and was told by a learned member that (a) "We are gunners and we don't wear a sash", and (b) "We all know who the orderly sgt is anyway".
I believe that this has changed now and some gunner regiments do now have the ord sgt wearing a sash.
Some formations dyed the sash which avoids confusion with the infantry uniform distinction.

[Alan O]

Royal Signals dress regulations specify SNCO's sashes are dark blue not red.

Not to say that some numpty did not wear a red one in error but he would be very wrong.