Household Cavalry Regiment (from 1992 to present)

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

I'm certainly not demanding anything, so just to be absolutely clear, you are saying that officers of both regiments of Life Guards and then The Life Guards, as well as the Royal Horse Guards and subsequently the Blues and Royals all wore gilt and enamel caps with the title of their particular regiment upon them on their forage caps?

No Frank. I’ve shown images of the badges that existed, whether they are copies or not. I repeat, they existed a VERY short time and in tiny numbers:

1. 1st and 2nd Life Guards (existed just two years, from 1920 when public duties recommenced until 1922 when the two regiments merged).
2. The Life Guards (from 1922) until HCR badge adopted during the latter part of George V reign (the number of actual mounted troops became reduced progressively over decades with each new round of defence cuts).
3. The Royal Horse Guards from 1920 until the HCR badge was adopted.
4. The Blues and Royals (RHG and 1st Dragoons) only ever wore the HCR badge already then in use. Only three cyphers for this badge are possible, GVR, GVIR and EIIR.

NB. See enclosed the three HCR badges, one with GVR cypher, one with GVIR cypher, and one with EIIR cypher, one RHG and two LG. The LG has ribbed lace on the peak and the RHG has smooth lace on the peak (the latter has continued in use for the Blues and Royals.

[Frank Kelley]

Okay, so again, to be absolutely clear, you appear to be suggesting that officers of the 1st and 2nd Life Guards as well as the Royal Horse Guards all wore gilt and enamel cap badges with the particular title of their regiment upon them on their forage caps?

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

No Frank. I’ve shown images of the badges that existed, whether they are copies or not. I repeat, they existed a VERY short time and in tiny numbers:

1. 1st and 2nd Life Guards (existed just two years, from 1920 when public duties recommenced until 1922 when the two regiments merged).
2. The Life Guards (from 1922) until HCR badge adopted (the number of actual mounted troops became reduced progressively over decades with each new round of defence cuts).
3. The Royal Horse Guards from 1920 until the HCR badge was adopted.
4. The Blues and Royals (RHG and 1st Dragoons) only ever wore the HCR badge already then in use.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

Okay, so again, to be absolutely clear, you appear to be suggesting that officers of the 1st and 2nd Life Guards as well as the Royal Horse Guards all wore gilt and enamel cap badges with the particular title of their regiment upon them on their forage caps?

Yes! For a very short period (for the reasons I’ve explained) until the generic HCR badge was adopted.
The changes of insignia were determined by changes in headdress and fashion (as in what the Army as a whole were doing). You can get a good feel for how things evolved for the Household Cavalry regiments over the span of Queen Victoria’s reign, the strong influence of which is still seen today: http://www.uniformology.com/HHC-00.html

[Frank Kelley]

Okay, please could you tell us exactly where that particular information came from?

[QUOTE=Toby Purcell;505713]Yes! For a very short period (for the reasons I’ve explained) until the generic HCR badge was adopted.

[Toby Purcell]

[QUOTE=Frank Kelley;505716]Okay, please could you tell us exactly where that particular information came from?

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Yes! For a very short period (for the reasons I’ve explained) until the generic HCR badge was adopted.

No Frank, I think I’ve typed enough information now. You believe what you choose to believe.

[Toby Purcell]

[QUOTE=Frank Kelley;505716]Okay, please could you tell us exactly where that particular information came from?

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Yes! For a very short period (for the reasons I’ve explained) until the generic HCR badge was adopted.

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

I’m sure that what you say will be of interest to collectors, Luke, and I understand why people who invest large amounts of money in a particular piece take great interest in what is or is not a fake. Personally I’m just a historian of uniform and it’s associated insignia and confine my studies to regimental museum collections, old photographs, quality paintings, regimental records, dress regulations, Army Orders, Army Council Instructions and other, documentary evidence. It is from those sources that I provided the information in my post. I leave it to the reader to decide if they find it of relevance according to their particular interest.

It’s important to note that the number of genuine badges will have been very small. First there were not that many officers in a regiment at a particular time. Second the coloured forage cap was only introduced circa 1904 and no badge at all was worn on it until after WW1, although different, plain metal badges were worn on drab service dress, which has caused confusion to those who do/did not understand that. Third, King George V died fairly soon after the badges were introduced, reducing further the number with his cypher. Fourth, King Edward VIII abdicated soon after his succession and again very few badges were made. Fifth, there were only a few years of the peace in which such enameled badges were required before war broke out again and service dress only worn for the duration.

After both world wars it took some time before full pomp and circumstance returned and Britain after WW2 was economically depressed so that it was not until the 1950s that things began to return to normal. Soon after that King George VI died, so again there were few badges with his cypher. Sixth, it was only in the reign of Queen Elizabeth II that there was a long enough reign for significant numbers of badges to exist. By then 1st and 2nd LG had long before merged (1922). In 1961 1st Dragoons and the Royal Horse Guards merged, all events that had an effect on numbers of badges.

Overall then it has to be remembered that such specialised badges, worn for a specific purpose, on a particular item of dress, don’t exist in a vacuum and have to be considered in the context of the times in which they existed.

[magpie]

Some numbers for those interested.

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

No Frank, I don’t personally possess any images of the badges in use, and you are demanding something quite difficult to do. As I’ve tried to explain, first of all they existed for a short time, in very small numbers. Second, colour photography did not exist at the time they were in wear. Few portrait photos were taken of an officer in undress headdress (except in frock coats as normal barracks wear), as they very naturally preferred the splendour of full dress. The same applies to oil paintings, and in both cases the focus of the image was invariably on the man and not his cap badge. I’ve taken notes of things I’ve seen and read, but I don’t have something I can present to you and say here is proof. We are talking about a period spanning a hundred years. You’re entitled to your opinion, but I’m not going to argue with you.

NB. I enclose some pre-WW1 photos showing that no badge was worn until after the war, as I’ve explained (note usage too with mess dress). The very few badges ever produced would only have spanned from the mid 1920s to 1939. Other than on field caps, the regiment’s had previously no tradition whatsoever of wearing undress cap badges, it was alien to them. Instead they had special rank stars based on the order of the garter (not at that time worn by Foot Guards) and specially laced peaks on their caps in a unique pattern that was different for each regiment (inherited from the previous forage cap 1880-1904). They felt no need for other insignia.

Outstanding info Toby, thanks for sharing. Have you seen the 1900 dress regs ? and the and the said Calvary badges it shows ? when were these worn ?
Andy

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Luke H

Just to be clear all those enamelled badges are all fakes sold by Wharton Militaria. They’re not nice especially when compared to a genuine piece.

Despite what KK says I have never seen a 1LG or 2LG in gilt and enamelled that I consider genuine. Personally I doubt they exist but would love to be proved wrong.

The GvR badges are all from the common fake die à la Martin Marsh catalogues but had a bit more time and effort invested to void the annealed ‘v’ and of course add enamel. Always beware of Spiderman enamel!

The EviiiR badge is also straight from the MM repro catalogue and in my belief does not exist either. I have seen a genuine gilded The Life Guards EviiiR badge but it looks nothing like that, there is no laurel spray st 6 o’clock rather a dot.

As to the EiiR Household Cavalry, the Elizabethan die is no doubt still extant and in use. The one for sale on Bosley’s regimentalbadges.com site has a Gaunt London slider (unusually) but does appear to have some age to it. I think we can be certain the Wharton one given its appearance was made at the same time as the other repros and for the collectors market rather than the regiment.

This GvR Household Cavalry badge is genuine. The difference is quality and finish is very striking.

Some of the badges he owns are shocking, the prices for fakes ????? Unbelievable. Mind you his had them up for sale a long time, i think customers know his dealing in a lot of crap. IMHO.
Andy

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

Some of the badges he owns are shocking, the prices for fakes ????? Unbelievable. Mind you his had them up for sale a long time, i think customers know his dealing in a lot of crap. IMHO.
Andy

Hello Andy, I'm glad that you found it interesting.

Yes I'm familiar with those badges in the 1900 DRs, they are badges for the field caps that I mentioned, but did not describe in post #14. See enclosed images courtesy of Bruce Bassett-Powell, and available in detail here: http://www.uniformology.com/HHC-00.html These badges are even rarer than the enameled badges that we are talking about in this thread.

It was just on forage caps (pillbox and peaked) that they did not wear badges.

It's interesting that the Foot Guards adopted the style of Horse Guards rank stars (pips) and the Horse Guards adopted the style of Foot Guards forage cap badges. In both cases this was in the period immediately after WW1.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by magpie

Some numbers for those interested.

Thank you, it's very useful to see the numbers of officers post-war. The number of regimental enameled badges ever made was tiny and they are extraordinarily rare. Few surviving examples appear on sale, and the majority exist only in the possession of wealthy collectors right across the world. They are very sought after because of that tantalising quality that always attracts wealthy collectors, beauty and rarity. KK did not refer to badges that never existed.

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Hello Andy, I'm glad that you found it interesting.

Yes I'm familiar with those badges in the 1900 DRs, they are badges for the field caps that I mentioned, but did not describe in post #14. See enclosed images courtesy of Bruce Bassett-Powell, and available in detail here: http://www.uniformology.com/HHC-00.html

It was just on forage caps (pillbox and peaked) that they did not wear badges.

It's interesting that the Foot Guards adopted the style of Horse Guards rank stars (pips) and the Horse Guards adopted the style of Foot Guards forage cap badges. In both cases this was in the period immediately after WW1.

Thanks Toby.
Andy

[Luke H]

I think a robust discussion is good, healthy and often productive.

Absolutely, the historical background and records are of great importance and interest to me and I’m sure many others Toby. I for one certainly appreciate your contributions so please be assured my response is meant in a constructive way only to help establish what actually happened in practice and is not a criticism of historians or the records.

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Separate and beautifully enameled cap badges were introduced comprising a simple circlet with title, surmounted by a crown, and with the Royal cypher at its centre. When the 1st and 2nd LG merged their badge simply replaced 'first' and 'second' with 'The'.

The way I read the above sounded like a statement of fact that 1LG and 2LG wore G&E badges.

Accompanied with the demo pics it suggested to me they were examples of these badges when they weren’t. That was the basis of my response in post #10 born from a concern the two together could lead to an assumption by a reader that the badges pictured were what to look for. Obviously I see you’ve clarified this in post #11 in that your intention was to leave it for collectors to decide and they were for demo purposes only.

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

. Personally I’m just a historian of uniform and it’s associated insignia and confine my studies to regimental museum collections, old photographs, quality paintings, regimental records, dress regulations, Army Orders, Army Council Instructions and other, documentary evidence. It is from those sources that I provided the information in my post. I leave it to the reader to decide if they find it of relevance according to their particular interest.

I have never seen a period photo or painting of a 1LG or 2LG cap badge in G&E. Additionally as mentioned earlier I’ve never seen a badge I would consider genuine, all are from the Martin Marsh repro stable nicely demonstrated by Wharton Militaria. Therefore I imagine your source comes down to a written record of some description?

I take your point that numbers of these G&E badges would be relatively low but these regiments and their well-to-do officers are certainly very well photographed and painted due to their ceremonial roles and the prestige element. This I feel would counterbalance numbers somewhat.

My honest belief is that 1LG and 2LG did not wear G&E badges as a matter of course. But as I said I’d love to be proved wrong. If I ever am proved wrong (by a period photo or a genuine badge emerging) I feel confident in saying such a badge will be the ‘exception to’ rather than ‘the rule’ itself as to what was worn in practice, even though the ‘exception’ may be commensurate with orders and documentation.

An example that springs to mind is the documentation unearthed by Julian (KLR) which suggests for a brief period that infantry regiments with badges ordered in all GM also had this extended to their TF Battalions. Clearly for some this did happen in practice like the Essex Reg and Northants, but, I am certain not for others such as the scroll-less Leicestershire Reg and blank scroll East Lancs. I think I’m correct in saying there may even be numbers ordered attached to these.

Ultimately there are certain facets to this hobby where the individual collector has to decide what they believe. In a way is perhaps it’s one of our hobby’s charms? But in order to reach the best informed decision it’s important to know as much information, physical, photographic/painting, documents, orders, regulations and their source as possible to balance all sides of a debate and see which one we feel most comfortable coming down on.

[Frank Kelley]

Sorry, I don't understand, you have clearly stated that officers of three regiments wore gilt and enamel cap badges that were unique to each particular regiment, I simply wondered where exactly you got that information from and the actual evidence you have to support your statement?


[QUOTE=Toby Purcell;505721]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

Okay, please could you tell us exactly where that particular information came from?



No Frank, I think I’ve typed enough information now. You believe what you choose to believe.

[Bill]

Here is a photograph of a genuine RHG cap star as in the 1900 and 1904 Officers Dress Regs.

There may be many more of these around (and 1LG versions) as I bought this as a "fire damaged" Coldstream Guards WO star. For "fire damaged" read black tarnish.

Bill