Royal Marines badge - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Juno44 · #1 03-06-09, 03:23 AM

Hello, I just bought a Green WW2 Royal Marine Officer beret and Badge. With so many fakes of badges etc. Can someone please date the badge for me? I know it's genuine JR GAUNT LOndon. But is it WW2 or 1946-1950's?
Thanks for any help.

stonehouse boy · #2 03-06-09, 07:56 PM

Hi Juno44,
I think your beret is for a Warrant Officer (RSM) or a (QMS) Quartermaster Sergeant.
My bronze officers badge the globe & laurel are in two parts and held by a nut.
But my Warrant Officer badge is the very same as in your picture and was worn through the war up to about early 1954.
John

Juno44 · #3 03-06-09, 09:29 PM

Wow, thank you sir: Finally someone who can help date my badge. Do any books show this badge and info as well?
Thanks

Juno44 · #4 06-06-09, 01:49 AM

I think my KC badge is after WW2. The QC badge of 1953 is identicle to this one. Check out;

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...m=350206980388

So in my mind this type made late 1940's. I'm told by other collectors that the WW2 badge was cheaper metal, officers were gilded, even bakerlite plastic.

What's your opinion again?

Thanks

stonehouse boy · #5 06-06-09, 09:40 PM

Hi Juno,
I can't date your badge when it was issued but in his book Naval and Marine Badges and Insignia by Guido Rosignoli, he states that bronze badges were worn on khaki service dress through the war.
Green Berets didn't start to get issued to Royal Marines until late 1942 early 1943.
Most war time pictures of Royal Marines in the field seem to show Officers wearing silver and gilt badges in their berets.
And Warrant Officers, Quartermaster Sergeants a badge all in gilt on their berets.
The badge you show on the on line auction is an anodised bronze badge which came in in the mid 1960's to date.
And you are right when you say some badges and collars for other ranks were made in bakelite.
John

Juno44 · #6 19-06-09, 06:14 PM

Thanks to Paddy I now have the 2 piece badge identified. He sent me 2 long emails and photos to help date the badges.

Results:

The Lion & Crown are pre 1952. It is different in color to the other piece. More reddish brown. Also has bendable tabs on back.

The Globe & Laurel are 1960's era. This ionized darker bronze was used with the Lovat dress. JR GAUNT LONDON on back.

Both badges genuine.

Paddy is so helpful, thank you.

Juno44 · #7 19-06-09, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stonehouse boy

Hi Juno,
I can't date your badge when it was issued but in his book Naval and Marine Badges and Insignia by Guido Rosignoli, he states that bronze badges were worn on khaki service dress through the war.
Green Berets didn't start to get issued to Royal Marines until late 1942 early 1943.
Most war time pictures of Royal Marines in the field seem to show Officers wearing silver and gilt badges in their berets.
And Warrant Officers, Quartermaster Sergeants a badge all in gilt on their berets.
The badge you show on the on line auction is an anodised bronze badge which came in in the mid 1960's to date.
And you are right when you say some badges and collars for other ranks were made in bakelite.
John

I think your Warrant Officer badge is also 1960's, not WW2. Yes bronze was worn during war but not this dark bronze. WW2 had different bronze.

We both got fooled yikes!!!!

2747andy · #8 19-06-09, 08:00 PM

Jun044,
it is a King's crown so must be pre 1952!!

Andy

Juno44 · #9 19-06-09, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Jun044,
it is a King's crown so must be pre 1952!!

Andy

Sorry Andy your wrong. Becasue it is 2 parts. The Lion & KC are pre WW2. The bottom Globe and Laurel is different color bronze of the Lovat Dress of 1960's.

Juno44 · #10 19-06-09, 08:15 PM

I mean to say Lion & KC part is pre 1952/3.

stonehouse boy · #11 19-06-09, 08:43 PM

Juno,
I didn't get fooled by anyone I told you the badge you put a link to! on the on line auction site was a modern bronze badge which came in to service from the mid 1960's check your quote.
And Royal Marines Warrant Officers didn't wear Kings Crown badges in the 1960's.
Here are some pictures of badges in bronze note different colours.
L-R
1 Officers pre 1954
2 Warrant Officers pre 1954
3 Officers 1954-64
4 Modern Officers and Warrant Officers 1964 to date

Juno44 · #12 20-06-09, 12:07 AM

The second from the right is identicle to my badge of the Globe and Laurel. This is 1960's Lovat dress badge NOT WW2 to 1952. This is proven now by PAddy and another big time collector I contacted. So yes you got fooled if you think it's pre 1952.

The KC Lion and Crown of mine is pre 1952. So If you understand, my badge is not matching set. 1 piece is 1952, one is 1960's. I dont know how much clearer I can make this.

Juno44 · #13 20-06-09, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stonehouse boy

Juno,
I didn't get fooled by anyone I told you the badge you put a link to! on the on line auction site was a modern bronze badge which came in to service from the mid 1960's check your quote.
And Royal Marines Warrant Officers didn't wear Kings Crown badges in the 1960's.
Here are some pictures of badges in bronze note different colours.
L-R
1 Officers pre 1954
2 Warrant Officers pre 1954
3 Officers 1954-64
4 Modern Officers and Warrant Officers 1964 to date

OOps you already have #3 at after 1954, which is the same as mine of globe and laurel. Just that in your first post to me you said my badge is same as your warrant Officer badge pre 1953. That was incorrect.

Thanks

stonehouse boy · #14 20-06-09, 05:22 PM

Juno,
Royal Marines do not wear bronze badges on their Lovat Dress Caps & Berets
they wear gold badges.
Only their buttons and collars are in bronze.
John

Paddy · #15 20-06-09, 06:32 PM

Juno. Looking at the previous replies I think you may be unintentionally misquoting/misinterpreting my PM to you. For the benefit of those who have replied to your questions I have added the content of my PM.

"Many thanks for your PM, while I don't profess to be an expert, like some people have kindly insinuated on the forum, I do collect RM badges and will try and give my opinion on your badge.

The first thing I notice is that both parts of the badge seem to be slightly different shades of brown, is this a trick of the light or are they different shades?

I would also like to see a picture of the back of the Lion & Crown, does it have lugs or bendable tabs?

Looking at the front of the Lion & Crown and the back of the Globe & Laurel I think that both parts of the badge are genuine badges. If the Lion & Crown are a different shade then I would guess that they are not a matched pair and have been put together to form an Officer/WO1 badge for the purpose of making this an "Officer's Beret", this would be further backed up if the Lion & Crown had bendable tabs.

I bought a RM OR's beret badge in 1982 which has the Gaunt London name stamped in the back similar to yours, personally I think these Gaunt badges were in use definitely during the 70s & 80s and more than likely the 60s so for the sake of ageing the Globe & Laurel part of your badge I would guess at 1960s. As for the Lion & Crown, I do think it is genuine and so would date it as pre 1952/3 ish, although the Queen came to the throne in 1952 there was a delay in transferring all badges to Queen's Crown and so the King's Crown was worn by a lot of regiments for a few years after 1952.

Officer or Warrant Officer? I would say the Globe & Laurel is a Warrant Officer badge, mainly because it has lugs. If the Lion and Crown has bendable tabs then I would say it is part of an officer's beret badge. I have a couple of 2 part King's Crown badges which I consider to be Officer's Beret Badges and both of them have Lion & Crown and Globe & Laurel all with bendable tabs. One of them has a Firmin London tablet /plaque on the back and the other is a multi-part construction Globe & Laurel just like the Silver & Gilt Officer's badges. If you send me your email address I will send you some pictures of the front and back.

Most of this info is my own personal opinion (for what it's worth) and some may question it but personally I would say that both parts of the badge are genuine. The Lion & Crown is pre 1952/3 ish and the Globe & Laurel I would say is 1960s. The Globe & Laurel I would say is part of the Warrant Officer's badge but I would need to see the back of the Lion & Crown to make a decision on it, would also like to know if the 2 parts of the badge are different colours. If you can answer the questions wrt the colours and tabs/lugs on the Lion & Crown then I will make a stab at what it is"

Also sent:-

"Unfortunately the fact that your Lion & Crown has tabs and is a different colour would tend to bear out what I said. L&C is WW2 and part of an Officer's Beret Badge and the Globe & Laurel is more recent and part of a WO's beret badge (or even collar badge, but less likely)"

And

"One thing I forgot to mention about the main difference in the Globe & Laurels between Officers Badges and WO Badges or OR's Collar badges is that in the Officer's Badge, at the top of the laurel wreath, the wreath ends in a single pointed leaf. In a WO's badge or OR's collar badge the laurel wreaths end in 2 leaves either side. Compare the G&L of my Officer's badges with the G&L of your badge and you will see. Single leaf = Officer, Double leaf = WO Badge or OR collar"

John (Stonehouse Boy)

If you have read the above and think I am incorrect in anything I said can you please let me know as I would prefer to have the correct facts for my own peace of mind if nothing else.

Paddy